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Post by twine on Aug 2, 2009 11:54:22 GMT -6
To answer the last question, if they are qualifying honestly and need the help, then no, it isn't a big deal. I couldn't have said it better myself. It's too bad this kind of rationale has been labeled as idealism. If only there were a way to prevent abusing the system. |
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Post by NOTTHOR on Aug 2, 2009 13:42:06 GMT -6
To answer the last question, if they are qualifying honestly and need the help, then no, it isn't a big deal. I couldn't have said it better myself. It's too bad this kind of rationale has been labeled as idealism. If only there were a way to prevent abusing the system. Well, maybe my definition of honestly and someone else's definition of honestly are different. There should absolutely be a means test that is no less onerous than the means test to file Chapter 7 bankruptcy in order to qualify for food stamps. If you file for bankruptcy and you don't qualify for Chapter 7, you have to get a budget set by the trustee. You have to go through counseling. You have to actually make life changes to make sure you can set aside money for your creditors. The same should be true for food stamp recipients. The sad thing is that when Citibank and Capital One hire Biden's kid to lobby to protect their assets in the event a counterparty of theirs goes bankrupt, they get better treatment than the taxpayer does with respect to programs like food stamps. No one has a residual claim to the money, so the government will spend it at will. The test should be simple, but in-depth. Car - you better not have title to a nicer car than any that I've ever owned. If you do, no food stamps. If you have car payments that are excessive, better sell that car. Housing - depends on local market, but it better be damned cheap. Cable - better not have more than basic. No HD package, no DVR. Internets - better be bare bones. Entertainment - Whatever is in this column will reduce your food stamp allotment. The taxpayer shouldn't have to pay for your fucking food so you can go see Shrek at the theater. The program could be overhauled in a similar manner to bankruptcy, with mandatory financial counseling as a condition to receive stamps, but the problem is that no one has a vested interest in protecting the government's money so nothing will ever change. |
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Post by HawksStock on Aug 2, 2009 21:46:15 GMT -6
wow btr for the first time I can say this...
anyone who disagrees with this post is a bad person
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Post by twine on Aug 2, 2009 23:12:20 GMT -6
wow btr for the first time I can say this... anyone who disagrees with this post is a bad person The only thing I would disagree is that if you can't afford to put food on the table you can use the computer for the library for your internet needs. Cable isn't really all that necessary either, between the networks and PBS you can find enough TV to get by on. |
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Post by thejesus on Aug 3, 2009 8:16:18 GMT -6
The system is set up to produce debt and enslave the population by forcing them to succumb to shitty employment to pay off their debt. Inevitably, people fall behind and have to rely on social programs. It is a big game of musical chairs (borrowed that analogy). Some fall behind and try to tread water for 20 years. For some, it leads straight to bankruptcy. Then the banks reclaim property and assets and the cycle is repeated once again. Meanwhile, the rest of the slaves bitch and moan about how they work and pay their debts, so why can't this guy or that guy. We are all sheep.  |
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Post by Master Blaster on Aug 3, 2009 9:33:50 GMT -6
The system is what it is, you can bitch all you want, claim slavery all you want, but in the end it is what you have to work with. Those that choose to work hard, be responsible and enjoy a little success because of that often retire without wondering where the next meal comes from.
At the risk of completely changing the topic here, what are you proposing as an alternative? Or is this just a general bitch because you gotta go to work to put food on the table? I personally would rather work and not take a handout, then not work (by choice) and get a handout.
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Post by thejesus on Aug 3, 2009 11:01:45 GMT -6
The system is what it is, you can bitch all you want, claim slavery all you want, but in the end it is what you have to work with. Those that choose to work hard, be responsible and enjoy a little success because of that often retire without wondering where the next meal comes from. At the risk of completely changing the topic here, what are you proposing as an alternative? Or is this just a general bitch because you gotta go to work to put food on the table? I personally would rather work and not take a handout, then not work (by choice) and get a handout. I hear what you are saying about how the system is what we have, so we might as well make the best of it. But I just can't get behind that full force. If the world is fucked up, we shouldn't just acknowledge it and go about our business. We should fix that shit. Do I, personally, have a workable alternative to our current system? No. I'll be the first to admit I don't. I'll also be the first to admit that I'm probably not smart enough to come up with one. I have some noble ideas, but they are just ideas. I don't have any research or trained, educated thought processes behind them. But I do know that our world is very sick and twisted. Americans, by and large, have it OK. If your willing to do the work, you can feed and cloth your family. You can get a house and transportation. You can "get by". But the world, as a whole, is completely fucked. Corporations only care about profit. Money is God. Fuck people. That's why millions of people starve to death when we have plenty of food to feed them. That's why 1% of the world owns 40% of the wealth in the world. That's why we go to war constantly. The world is controlled by a few. And those "few" are evil mother fuckers, pure and simple. It's honorable that you would rather work to provide for your family, rather then take a "handout". I agree with you completely. I've never taken a "handout" in my life. I've never collected unemployment, nor taken food stamps or government assisted living benefits. But I certainly don't look down on people who do. You don't know these people's personal situations. We all tend to judge entirely too much. The world breeds a me first mentality. It is drilled into our heads and we are conditioned to think that way. That's what profit is all about. I would like to see more of a group mentality. What's good for the earth? What's good for humanity? How we can help people and at the same time solve these problems that we have? I don't know. I'm not saying I have the answers. But to turn your back on the fucked-up-ness that is our world, because it is too hard to think about, or come up with a better alternative, is certainly not the answer.   Rant....Rant......Rant. I know. I'm hoping for an answer more then most. Just not sure where it's going to come from. Could this be the answer: www.thevenusproject.com/I don't know. But I certainly like the direction they are going in. At least they are acknowledging what is sick with our planet and working in a constructive manner to propose an alternative, better system designed to help the world and ALL that live in it. Not just the Wall Street fat cats, and to a smaller extent, the American working class. |
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Post by Gumbyhawk on Aug 3, 2009 19:41:47 GMT -6
I've taken unemployment. And I am damned appreciative and grateful for it. Seriously. It helped me "get by" during some hard times.
But, I really think it is too easily abused. You only have to apply for TWO fucking jobs a week to get your benefits. And nobody ever actually holds anyone's feet to the fire and checks on this shit. I've known people who did jack shit and simply CLAIMED to have sent out two applications or whatever. Me? I probably applied to 7 or 8 jobs a week hoping to get OFF of the unemployment.
And that's the difference between proles and TRASH. Proles at least TRY to better themselves. Trash wallows in their own shit and then asks for more. Well.... when they aren't busy watching Oprah and scarfing Govt cheese.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Aug 3, 2009 20:13:20 GMT -6
Unemployment is very different than food stamps. Unemployment is insurance and only in the worst of slowdowns does it draw from the general funds of the government. It is also based on a sound policy rationale of spreading the risk of a decrease in industrial output amongst everyone. There are also adversarial components of it, as employers have a vested interest in keeping people from using it for bullshit reasons. Food stamps have none of those characteristics.
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Post by Solar Stud on Aug 3, 2009 20:44:51 GMT -6
Unemployment is very different than food stamps. Unemployment is insurance and only in the worst of slowdowns does it draw from the general funds of the government. It is also based on a sound policy rationale of spreading the risk of a decrease in industrial output amongst everyone. There are also adversarial components of it, as employers have a vested interest in keeping people from using it for bullshit reasons. Food stamps have none of those characteristics. Well stated, Jeff. Really. At least food in the grocery store has "WIC" labels on it so the 'less fortunate' can't use the stamps on beer and chips and other garbage. |
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Post by socal on Aug 3, 2009 20:53:46 GMT -6
This has been an interesting topic.
Time for some full disclosure...
I've always been fairly successful in business, things were going quite well for me in fact. When in California, I made right at 6 figures and was set for raises and stock options when my daughter was born in 2002.
I took off two weeks vacation for the event, then two days after returning to work - they had another round of layoffs, which included a HUGE salary reduction for everyone not laid off (including me).
While not great news, we still had enough to pay bills - and they also gave us time off relative to the reduction %. So I got to spend more time with our new baby & job searching.
There wasn't jack squat available in the salaries I was looking for. Not having finished my degree a decade before didn't help matters. -I'd gotten my higher paying positions via old bosses that knew my capabilities and bypassed that requirement.
In the meantime I'd endured years without a raise (I wiped my ass with the stock options long ago)... we moved to Peoria with my company. Where yes, it's a shithole, but the cost of living is drastically less than CA... and best of all, my company maintained my reduced CA salary level.
Anyways... debt gradually increased. Slowly, but steadily. New transmission, 1st kid, 2nd kid, interest, etc (and two very stupid sub $1000 purchases... a Tivo & a Tens/Stim unit) - it increased up to the point where I was paying out $2600/month in payments.
While admittedly playing one CC issuer against each other -and occasionally robbing Peter to pay Paul via balance transfers, we were never once late on a payment (and always above the minimum).
We stayed on this treadmill for years. I broke down on more than a few occasions from the stress. Eventually we had over $82,000 in debt with a $140,000 credit limit - with credit scores around 770.
Then in May 2007, I received a letter from BoA stating that they were going to raise the rate from the 9.9% it was at- to 29%. I could reject this increase, but have the CC cancelled with payments still due at the original rate. Somehow it took my rejection notice 3 weeks to get to them via the US mail, until it coincidentally reached them the day after the notification was due... enacting the increase.
I was absolutely batshit livid - but countless hours of calls and letters got me nothing. The detailed spreadsheet I maintained with account balances/interest/payments for all credit cards no longer showed we could pay off the debt in 3 years. It now calculated out to infinity.
We sought all the advice we could, then we were advised to see a bankruptcy attorney. After a 5 minute analysis, due to 2 kids - we were eligible for either a Chapter 7 or 13 filing. I chose 13 so we would pay back at least a good chunk of the debt. The filing was official on July 7th 2007... my birthday.
bince the filing, we have had no problems living without a credit card. Even dealing with some extensive car & home repairs, it was saved in the bank account.
With my layoff on 3/31 I received a severance package, with part of the money we paid off the remainder of the bankruptcy a year early.
Right now I get $972 every two weeks in unemployment. I'm in a program that allows me to work towards my degree instead of doing a Sisyphean job search. And besides our utilities, the only debt we have is our mortgage payment. With everything, we are comfortably living on that $972 without really having to dip into savings.
In summary, things do happen to people. Things that put them in tenuous situations. While I'm not proud of filing bankruptcy, it was the only alternative we had. Without it, the good changes we have made could not have happened... and I might not have been here to write this.
Had I been able to prevent the bankruptcy until I was laid off, we would not have had near the depth of learning - and might very well be homeless.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Aug 4, 2009 8:34:07 GMT -6
There's nothing wrong with filing BK, your only mistake was filing for 13. The satisfaction of calling BOA and telling them to eat a fucking bag would have been worth it and you still could have made an accord for your other debts. My brother filed BK when some asshole stole his identity and wiped out his HSBC account. He also owed some debt to HSBC and ended up bouncing all of his checks because his account got wiped out. HSBC would put the money back in his account, but they wouldn't waive the bounced check fees. He waited for them to put the money in his account, closed it, and filed for bankruptcy the next day and told them to eat a cock. He sounded really satisfied when he came home after telling the manager how the failure to waive $300 of fees cost them several thousand dollars of losses. BK is the only threat the little guy has against the banks.
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Post by Master Blaster on Aug 4, 2009 10:21:00 GMT -6
thejesus- far enough, I can respect that. Their are some evil people in the world and you are absolutely right when you say that americans don't realiae how good we have it in comparison to other places out there. I would live no where else in the world. But as messed up as the world is, as messed up as some can be, there is good out there. Bad gets the news, good is often thankless. And not all corporations are souless, there are some trying to do good in the world. Just not as noticable.
hang in there Socal. I got no beef with those getting a helping hand to get back on their feet. You not taking WIC even given the situation above tells me that you don't want a handout. Some out there do. That is what bugs me.
On a side note, why the hell don't we spend more time in the education system teaching subjects like responsible fiscal habits, what CC's really are, how interest works? Seems like we should teach a little more on the subject.
And I will never use a bank to run the majority of my finances through. Banks suck. credit unions are often so much better, particularily the middle to large sized ones.
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Post by socal on Aug 5, 2009 14:51:18 GMT -6
There's nothing wrong with filing BK, your only mistake was filing for 13. The satisfaction of calling BOA and telling them to eat a fucking bag would have been worth it and you still could have made an accord for your other debts. My brother filed BK when some asshole stole his identity and wiped out his HSBC account. He also owed some debt to HSBC and ended up bouncing all of his checks because his account got wiped out. HSBC would put the money back in his account, but they wouldn't waive the bounced check fees. He waited for them to put the money in his account, closed it, and filed for bankruptcy the next day and told them to eat a cock. He sounded really satisfied when he came home after telling the manager how the failure to waive $300 of fees cost them several thousand dollars of losses. BK is the only threat the little guy has against the banks. I was in too much shock and beholden "to the man" to think about being that vindictive. As it was, they got less than 10%. I must congratulate them on their promptness though - as I'm still not sure how everything worked in the background... the morning after signing the papers I received an "urgent call" at work from a CC company (routed through my boss) - breathlessly asking if I'd like to make a payment on my credit card--- a card that was current. I indirectly told the dude to piss off and contact my attorney if he had any questions. While I don't foresee ever needing to go through it again, I would wholeheartedly endorse the process for those that are in a similar situation. The instant removal of 90% of someone's stress is a bit shocking... but can do good things. |
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