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Post by NOTTHOR on Jun 6, 2008 11:47:30 GMT -6
Ralph, Do you feel you can make a valid assessment of the living conditions of all Americans, as you are asserting? Do you mean to tell me that you fully understand the health and economic conditions of native americans, people from appalachia, urban blacks, upper midwest whites, pacific islanders...all of them? You know all of this by heart? People in various groups in this country have wildly different outcomes. Your argument would make sense if it were completely valid. You probably know more about the SES of people in Japan than you do in your own country. America is very diverse in this respect, and not as well off as you may believe. I don't mean this in a disrespectful fashion at all. I just don't think that you understand our people's issues as well as you claim to understand them. The left counters with the institutional racism theory. But for race, those groups would be better off... If given the choice between being a prole living in a trailer in the US or middle class Japanese, give me the freaking trailer. |
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Post by Norm "racerhawk" Parker on Jun 6, 2008 12:11:52 GMT -6
Ralph, Do you feel you can make a valid assessment of the living conditions of all Americans, as you are asserting? Do you mean to tell me that you fully understand the health and economic conditions of native americans, people from appalachia, urban blacks, upper midwest whites, pacific islanders...all of them? You know all of this by heart? People in various groups in this country have wildly different outcomes. Your argument would make sense if it were completely valid. You probably know more about the SES of people in Japan than you do in your own country. America is very diverse in this respect, and not as well off as you may believe. I don't mean this in a disrespectful fashion at all. I just don't think that you understand our people's issues as well as you claim to understand them. The left counters with the institutional racism theory. But for race, those groups would be better off... If given the choice between being a prole living in a trailer in the US or middle class Japanese, give me the freaking trailer. Never did I utter a word about racism. wtf dude? I stated a fact about different groups in this country having different outcomes. This speaks to this issue very directly. I didn't bring racism into this. Furthermore, do all attorneys rely exclusively on conjecture, emotional opinions, and buzzwords? Or is that just you? Perhaps if you could get off your left/right hyperbolic dogma for a nanosecond, we might have an interesting discussion. Ah, forget it. |
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Post by The Bluzmn on Jun 6, 2008 12:40:22 GMT -6
Come on down here, Ralphie, and let me give you a tour of rural GA and SC. You will run back to Japan (which I believe you were spouting off about doing a month or so ago anyway).
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Post by Iowafan1 on Jun 6, 2008 19:56:32 GMT -6
One index, which is called the human development index (widely available on line) is a composite of some of these factors and takes into account education, health, wealth, etc. In this index, the United States currently ranks 13th, behind such "marxist" countries as Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Norway, Japan, and some others. All of these countries are definitely "left" of the US, yet miraculously have higher standards of living, better health, and in some cases, much better education than we do. Sorry Racer....you and the index you reference couldn't be more wrong. I have been to every Country you mentioned with the exception of Finland. All you have to do is visit these Countries and walk outside. It will become very obvious to you that quality housing as well as thousands of business, services and conveniences that we take for granted here simply aren't available to the masses there. Just try to drive to a 7-11 in Switzerland at 2:00 AM to buy yourself a slurpee, a candy bar and fill your car up with gas. Not gonna happen. They don't exist. Try going to Japan and buying, or even renting, a place to live that is larger than 500-600 SQ FT with an average wage. By the way....once you get in that 500-600 SQ FT home, it will basically be one room with a separation door made of rice paper framed with wood. I lived that life with a family. You can bring up "victims" in the form of Appalachians, trailer dwellers and inner city inhabitants all you want, but the fact is they will remain victims as long as they consider themselves victims. Ralphie grew up in a trailer.....turned out fine when he chose to improve his life. In the 40's, my Father and his family struggled with the family farm in Lone Tree to the point where he wasn't able to get an education beyond the 2nd grade. The man with the 2nd grade education hasn't had to work a day in his life for the past 20 years, but has chosen to do so anyway. His success came because he never considered himself a victim and his work ethic has always been second to none. Those are just two examples, but their have been millions of people who had meager beginnings or worse, yet took the same opportunities that are available to everyone (yes.....everyone) and took advantage of them. 5% unemployment in this Country.......check Finland, France and Canada. |
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Post by Solar Stud on Jun 6, 2008 21:17:03 GMT -6
America will have clearly spoken it's not yet ready for a black president.
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Post by socal on Jun 6, 2008 22:39:41 GMT -6
One index, which is called the human development index (widely available on line) is a composite of some of these factors and takes into account education, health, wealth, etc. In this index, the United States currently ranks 13th, behind such "marxist" countries as Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Norway, Japan, and some others. All of these countries are definitely "left" of the US, yet miraculously have higher standards of living, better health, and in some cases, much better education than we do. Sorry Racer....you and the index you reference couldn't be more wrong. I have been to every Country you mentioned with the exception of Finland. All you have to do is visit these Countries and walk outside. It will become very obvious to you that quality housing as well as thousands of business, services and conveniences that we take for granted here simply aren't available to the masses there. Just try to drive to a 7-11 in Switzerland at 2:00 AM to buy yourself a slurpee, a candy bar and fill your car up with gas. Not gonna happen. They don't exist. Try going to Japan and buying, or even renting, a place to live that is larger than 500-600 SQ FT with an average wage. By the way....once you get in that 500-600 SQ FT home, it will basically be one room with a separation door made of rice paper framed with wood. I lived that life with a family. You can bring up "victims" in the form of Appalachians, trailer dwellers and inner city inhabitants all you want, but the fact is they will remain victims as long as they consider themselves victims. Ralphie grew up in a trailer.....turned out fine when he chose to improve his life. In the 40's, my Father and his family struggled with the family farm in Lone Tree to the point where he wasn't able to get an education beyond the 2nd grade. The man with the 2nd grade education hasn't had to work a day in his life for the past 20 years, but has chosen to do so anyway. His success came because he never considered himself a victim and his work ethic has always been second to none. Those are just two examples, but their have been millions of people who had meager beginnings or worse, yet took the same opportunities that are available to everyone (yes.....everyone) and took advantage of them. 5% unemployment in this Country.......check Finland, France and Canada. Cool, I learned something. It seems you can learn everything there is to know about a country by "visiting these countries and walk(ing) outside". I'll bet you that if it's sunny outside when you walk... it's always sunny. And when I visited France, there was an albino black person selling flowers outside the cemetery where Jim Morrison was buried... so I'll bet all black people in France are albino. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. |
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Post by Iowafan1 on Jun 7, 2008 2:35:27 GMT -6
Sorry Racer....you and the index you reference couldn't be more wrong. I have been to every Country you mentioned with the exception of Finland. All you have to do is visit these Countries and walk outside. It will become very obvious to you that quality housing as well as thousands of business, services and conveniences that we take for granted here simply aren't available to the masses there. Just try to drive to a 7-11 in Switzerland at 2:00 AM to buy yourself a slurpee, a candy bar and fill your car up with gas. Not gonna happen. They don't exist. Try going to Japan and buying, or even renting, a place to live that is larger than 500-600 SQ FT with an average wage. By the way....once you get in that 500-600 SQ FT home, it will basically be one room with a separation door made of rice paper framed with wood. I lived that life with a family. You can bring up "victims" in the form of Appalachians, trailer dwellers and inner city inhabitants all you want, but the fact is they will remain victims as long as they consider themselves victims. Ralphie grew up in a trailer.....turned out fine when he chose to improve his life. In the 40's, my Father and his family struggled with the family farm in Lone Tree to the point where he wasn't able to get an education beyond the 2nd grade. The man with the 2nd grade education hasn't had to work a day in his life for the past 20 years, but has chosen to do so anyway. His success came because he never considered himself a victim and his work ethic has always been second to none. Those are just two examples, but their have been millions of people who had meager beginnings or worse, yet took the same opportunities that are available to everyone (yes.....everyone) and took advantage of them. 5% unemployment in this Country.......check Finland, France and Canada. Cool, I learned something. It seems you can learn everything there is to know about a country by "visiting these countries and walk(ing) outside". I'll bet you that if it's sunny outside when you walk... it's always sunny. And when I visited France, there was an albino black person selling flowers outside the cemetery where Jim Morrison was buried... so I'll bet all black people in France are albino. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. Okay SoCal.....Yet again, you have made the choice to point out the exception to the rule while completely ignoring the rule. Back to the rule now...... What you are saying, in effect, is the following: 1: What we see day in and day out in our own Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 2: What we see day in and day out in other Countries relative to our own Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 3. The fact that people choosing to emmigrate from virtually every Country on the face of the planet because of their substandard quality of life and lack of opportunities overwhelmingly choose to immigrate to our Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 4. The fact that people choosing to emmigrate away from the USA relative to people choosing to immigrate to the USA is statistically non existent isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 5. The fact that opportunities for overall success in the USA are far more readily available to anyone who reaches out for them than anywhere else in the world isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 6. A 5% unemployment rate in the USA during what libs call the worst of times isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 7. The fact that none of us on this board can leave our homes without running into one, two or even many recently transplanted immigrants, both legal and illegal, isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 8. The fact that few of us, if any, know anyone who is looking to emmigrate away from our Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 9. The fact that anyone in our Country can walk into an emergency room and receive quality medical care when they need it, regardless of their citizenship status or insurance status isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. Yet........ your review of something called the Human Development Index is more than enough to persuade you that what we all see and experience isn't true at all. It is staggering to me that you and your liberal brethren consistently refuse to give the USA the benefit of the doubt even when there is no doubt. People and Countries who write reports such as the Human Development Index and the Greendex have an agenda and that agenda is to bring down the USA. Throughout the history of mankind, there have always been those who want to bring the #1 guy down a notch or two. That will always be the case. That is unless they need something from the USA. It is at that point when the USA goes from being a mean, piece of shit country to everyone's best buddy......until we cut them the check or send them the troops. Once they cash the check or our troops finish defending their freedom (see France), we go right back to being the mean, piece of shit country. Again, it will always be that way. The world will be a much better place once we level the UN. The one thing I would agree with in the findings is the educational and literacy problems. Hate to pile on, but if the left would stop being so tolerant for tolerance sake, increase the educational standards instead of decreasing them and start cracking down on teachers, students and parents and put schools out of business that aren't performing, we would make some headway. That will only happen though when the schools are taken away from union run government employees and are entirely privatized. |
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Post by GhostMod 5000 on Jun 7, 2008 9:59:50 GMT -6
Can you believe Iowafan would stay up until 2:30 on a Saturday morning to bang out that right wing diatribe?
...cause I can.
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Post by iammrhawkeyes on Jun 7, 2008 10:05:32 GMT -6
Can you believe Iowafan would stay up until 2:30 on a Saturday morning to bang out that right wing diatribe? ...cause I can. Good point. I always take TOP(time of post) into consideration. |
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Post by Iowafan1 on Jun 7, 2008 10:20:55 GMT -6
Can you believe Iowafan would stay up until 2:30 on a Saturday morning to bang out that right wing diatribe? ...cause I can. Thoughtful argument there Ghostie, but that would be 3:35 AM CST...and at least you admit that supporting the USA is "right wing" diatribe. Better that than the "left wing" diatribe of supporting all those who don't support the USA. |
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Post by Norm "racerhawk" Parker on Jun 7, 2008 11:36:06 GMT -6
One index, which is called the human development index (widely available on line) is a composite of some of these factors and takes into account education, health, wealth, etc. In this index, the United States currently ranks 13th, behind such "marxist" countries as Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Norway, Japan, and some others. All of these countries are definitely "left" of the US, yet miraculously have higher standards of living, better health, and in some cases, much better education than we do. Sorry Racer....you and the index you reference couldn't be more wrong. I have been to every Country you mentioned with the exception of Finland. All you have to do is visit these Countries and walk outside. It will become very obvious to you that quality housing as well as thousands of business, services and conveniences that we take for granted here simply aren't available to the masses there. Just try to drive to a 7-11 in Switzerland at 2:00 AM to buy yourself a slurpee, a candy bar and fill your car up with gas. Not gonna happen. They don't exist. Try going to Japan and buying, or even renting, a place to live that is larger than 500-600 SQ FT with an average wage. By the way....once you get in that 500-600 SQ FT home, it will basically be one room with a separation door made of rice paper framed with wood. I lived that life with a family. You can bring up "victims" in the form of Appalachians, trailer dwellers and inner city inhabitants all you want, but the fact is they will remain victims as long as they consider themselves victims. Ralphie grew up in a trailer.....turned out fine when he chose to improve his life. In the 40's, my Father and his family struggled with the family farm in Lone Tree to the point where he wasn't able to get an education beyond the 2nd grade. The man with the 2nd grade education hasn't had to work a day in his life for the past 20 years, but has chosen to do so anyway. His success came because he never considered himself a victim and his work ethic has always been second to none. Those are just two examples, but their have been millions of people who had meager beginnings or worse, yet took the same opportunities that are available to everyone (yes.....everyone) and took advantage of them. 5% unemployment in this Country.......check Finland, France and Canada. There you go with the "victim" stuff. Between you and Big Time, I'm somehow needing to defend "institutional racism" and "victim" comments that were never made. Can you read? Also, I do not want to drive around at midnight and buy a candy bar at a 7-11, for what it's worth. That might be critically important to you there in Memphis, but it's not a biggie for me. I'm interested in a higher standard of living, a longer lifespan, less pollution, and better public education. Many of the aforementioned countries noted in my reference have those things. However, feel free to appeal to us with baseless, emotional, hyper-opinionated tripe. Facts seem to confuse you. You're a good guy, but one that's totally incapable of reason outside of what you've already decided is proof. In short, you're the perfect wingnut. I like you, though, and would even share a bad Coors (you know the kind made for guys like you to tell you when it's cold). Cheers. |
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Post by GhostMod 5000 on Jun 7, 2008 11:41:28 GMT -6
Can you believe Iowafan would stay up until 2:30 on a Saturday morning to bang out that right wing diatribe? ...cause I can. Thoughtful argument there Ghostie, but that would be 3:35 AM CST...and at least you admit that supporting the USA is "right wing" diatribe. Better that than the "left wing" diatribe of supporting all those who don't support the USA. Look, no one hates America as much as me, that isn't the discussion here. I am just worried about you, as your friend, that you are drunk and angry in the middle of the night when you should be sleeping it off so you don't wake up too late to listen to weekend repeats of Rush Limbaugh. |
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Post by Iowafan1 on Jun 7, 2008 11:47:23 GMT -6
Thoughtful argument there Ghostie, but that would be 3:35 AM CST...and at least you admit that supporting the USA is "right wing" diatribe. Better that than the "left wing" diatribe of supporting all those who don't support the USA. Look, no one hates America as much as me, that isn't the discussion here. I am just worried about you, as your friend, that you are drunk and angry in the middle of the night when you should be sleeping it off so you don't wake up too late to listen to weekend repeats of Rush Limbaugh. Love you man...thanks for looking out |
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Post by Iowafan1 on Jun 7, 2008 11:48:27 GMT -6
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Post by GhostMod 5000 on Jun 7, 2008 11:51:40 GMT -6
Let the healing begin brother...
"He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, And he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city."
Proverbs 16:32
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Post by Iowafan1 on Jun 7, 2008 11:55:22 GMT -6
Let the healing begin brother... "He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, And he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city." Proverbs 16:32 I have a headache |
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Post by Iowafan1 on Jun 7, 2008 11:56:56 GMT -6
Sorry Racer....you and the index you reference couldn't be more wrong. I have been to every Country you mentioned with the exception of Finland. All you have to do is visit these Countries and walk outside. It will become very obvious to you that quality housing as well as thousands of business, services and conveniences that we take for granted here simply aren't available to the masses there. Just try to drive to a 7-11 in Switzerland at 2:00 AM to buy yourself a slurpee, a candy bar and fill your car up with gas. Not gonna happen. They don't exist. Try going to Japan and buying, or even renting, a place to live that is larger than 500-600 SQ FT with an average wage. By the way....once you get in that 500-600 SQ FT home, it will basically be one room with a separation door made of rice paper framed with wood. I lived that life with a family. You can bring up "victims" in the form of Appalachians, trailer dwellers and inner city inhabitants all you want, but the fact is they will remain victims as long as they consider themselves victims. Ralphie grew up in a trailer.....turned out fine when he chose to improve his life. In the 40's, my Father and his family struggled with the family farm in Lone Tree to the point where he wasn't able to get an education beyond the 2nd grade. The man with the 2nd grade education hasn't had to work a day in his life for the past 20 years, but has chosen to do so anyway. His success came because he never considered himself a victim and his work ethic has always been second to none. Those are just two examples, but their have been millions of people who had meager beginnings or worse, yet took the same opportunities that are available to everyone (yes.....everyone) and took advantage of them. 5% unemployment in this Country.......check Finland, France and Canada. There you go with the "victim" stuff. Between you and Big Time, I'm somehow needing to defend "institutional racism" and "victim" comments that were never made. Can you read? Also, I do not want to drive around at midnight and buy a candy bar at a 7-11, for what it's worth. That might be critically important to you there in Memphis, but it's not a biggie for me. I'm interested in a higher standard of living, a longer lifespan, less pollution, and better public education. Many of the aforementioned countries noted in my reference have those things. However, feel free to appeal to us with baseless, emotional, hyper-opinionated tripe. Facts seem to confuse you. You're a good guy, but one that's totally incapable of reason outside of what you've already decided is proof. In short, you're the perfect wingnut. I like you, though, and would even share a bad Coors (you know the kind made for guys like you to tell you when it's cold). Cheers. Okay Racer ole buddy ole pal.....I think you're pretty sweet too, but remember thy golden rule.....thou shalt not agree with thy SoCal or thy Thunderhawk for they shall lead you astray. As I communicated so eloquently to my retarded Brother SoCal at 3:35 AM, what you are saying, in effect, is the following: 1: What we see day in and day out in our own Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 2: What we see day in and day out in other Countries relative to our own Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 3. The fact that people choosing to emigrate from virtually every Country on the face of the planet because of their substandard quality of life and lack of opportunities overwhelmingly choose to immigrate to our Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 4. The fact that people choosing to emigrate away from the USA relative to people choosing to immigrate to the USA is statistically non existent isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 5. The fact that opportunities for overall success in the USA are far more readily available to anyone who reaches out for them than anywhere else in the world isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 6. A 5% unemployment rate in the USA during what libs call the worst of times isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 7. The fact that none of us on this board can leave our homes without running into one, two or even many recently transplanted immigrants, both legal and illegal, isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 8. The fact that few of us, if any, know anyone who is looking to emmigrate away from our Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 9. The fact that anyone in our Country can walk into an emergency room and receive quality medical care when they need it, regardless of their citizenship status or insurance status isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. Yet........ your review of something called the Human Development Index is more than enough to persuade you that what we all see and experience isn't true at all. It is staggering to me that you and your liberal brethren consistently refuse to give the USA the benefit of the doubt even when there is no doubt. People and Countries who write reports such as the Human Development Index and the Greendex have an agenda and that agenda is to bring down the USA. Throughout the history of mankind, there have always been those who want to bring the #1 guy down a notch or two. That will always be the case. That is unless they need something from the USA. It is at that point when the USA goes from being a mean, piece of shit country to everyone's best buddy......until we cut them the check or send them the troops. Once they cash the check or our troops finish defending their freedom (see France), we go right back to being the mean, piece of shit country. Again, it will always be that way. The world will be a much better place once we level the UN. The one thing I would agree with in the findings is the educational and literacy problems. Hate to pile on, but if the left would stop being so tolerant for tolerance sake, increase the educational standards instead of decreasing them and start cracking down on teachers, students and parents and put schools out of business that aren't performing, we would make some headway. That will only happen though when the schools are taken away from union run government employees and are entirely privatized. Exactly what part of this is wrong? |
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Post by Norm "racerhawk" Parker on Jun 7, 2008 13:26:13 GMT -6
Iowafan,
Just to be clear. WE live in the best country on earth. We have amazing opportunities here. People do come here to improve lives. We are all products of that. I will do anything to help make this country better.
Now, on to some of your poor assumptions:
1. "libs feel we're in the worst economic times"..... not true. Maybe some feel that way, but I don't. I do think that our government (both sides) has been incredibly myopic, and that our current regime's arrogance may cost us allies and trading partners in the future. This is my opinion, but it isn't too far fetched.
2. Our standard of living, on the whole, is decidedly not number one in the world, regardless your mid night candy bar and coors infused delusions.
3. Our health coutcomes, on the whole, are decidedly not number one.
4. The previous two items aren't really debatable, despite your intention to do so.
I will grant you that the very richest of Americans are truly living large, and that is part of the American dream, I understand. However, the dispartiy between working poor and very wealthy is really growing. Personally, I'm on the positive end of that, so it doesn't pinch me. However, this argument is based upon two different viewpoints. Yours, which asserts that we have the best standard of living may be true for you, as you seem to have made a nice living for yourself. Same for me. My argument is also true when you look at the OVERALL picture in America. This is what you're missing.
Look, before you crack open another Coors and talk about a welfare state, stop. I'm not suggesting one. I'm pointing out some FACTS about our OVERALL picture in this country.
Of note, I have not seen a ton of scandanavian immigrants the last few years. Mexican, yes. So, once again, your points are valid to a point, but they miss the mark, and therefore, miss my entire original point. I'm wondering if you're so brainwashed that you start typing before you finish reading others' posts??
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Post by Master Blaster on Jun 7, 2008 18:57:41 GMT -6
Greetings from Guam. Iowafan is right, visiting and spending time in other countries without doubt gives you an appreciation for what we have and take for granted everyday.
Pulling out of Iraq before they have a working government and a solid defense is a bad idea. I am not defending how we got to this point, just looking at the best way ahead. McCain gets the vote based on that issue.
We have a few professors onboard right now from the U of W giving cultural awareness briefs. One is an Iraqi professor that is praying for a McCain victory based on Obamas platform. He is way to worried about what the affect that Iran is going to have on his country without our presence there. Interesting stuff to learn.
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Post by Norm "racerhawk" Parker on Jun 7, 2008 19:35:39 GMT -6
Greetings from Guam. Iowafan is right, visiting and spending time in other countries without doubt gives you an appreciation for what we have and take for granted everyday. Pulling out of Iraq before they have a working government and a solid defense is a bad idea. I am not defending how we got to this point, just looking at the best way ahead. McCain gets the vote based on that issue. We have a few professors onboard right now from the U of W giving cultural awareness briefs. One is an Iraqi professor that is praying for a McCain victory based on Obamas platform. He is way to worried about what the affect that Iran is going to have on his country without our presence there. Interesting stuff to learn. Look, before we get too flag wavin here, I simply have been trying to assert that with in a few areas, the good ol' US of A is in fact not number one. Life expectancy and access to health care are two of those (by way of example). I am in no way debating that we live in the greatest country on earth. I never said that we weren't the best country, or that we had "institutional racism" or that I believed in a "welfare state." Those comments were made by our resident wingnut ideologues. I presented one fairly objective example. No one else has. BTR and Mr. Late night coors have only asserted their strong opinions based upon their individual experiences. That is fine, but it is decidedly not fact. BTR is so in love with his roots that I believe he said that he's moving to Japan when he gets done raking it in here in Chicago. (Is that emigration, BTR and IaFan?) For what it's worth, I have deep respect for your decision to be a career military person. I served for four years and got out. I really miss the people I worked with, and the spirit in which they worked. Having said that, most career military officers that I interacted with were pretty far right on the political spectrum, and with all due respect, that is to be expected. The right generally favors militaristic expansion and intervention. They are the people that pay your salary and your 1/2 base pay for the rest of your life when you retire. There is a certain inherent lack of objectivity when one political side essentially feeds you. I respect your opinions, but I do take them with a grain of salt, considering my experience with career military folks. Those fine folks are honest and hardworking, but a bit indoctrinated and hardly unbiased. I appreciate the sacrifices that are made daily by our service mena and women on behalf of our government. However, no one will ever convince me that Iraq was ever a good idea, and that staying there indefinitely as an occupying nation will help. We've been there far longer than WW2 with no clear plan. Don't you think American people, as well as family members of those who have been maimed and killed, deserve some accountability on the part of the politicians that erroneously put them amidst this chaos with poor anticipation and planning? This is not to say that Bin Laden and his ilk should not be avenged. It's just that we're in the wrong country. How does staying there for YEARS and YEARS longer help. It would seem that there are healthy terrorists in the tribal lands of Pakistan as we speak. Isn't it good strategy to adapt to one's environment, versus making a political decision that affects all of us for years? McCain will have us there "as long as it takes" and perhaps "a hundred years." NO way. Stay safe, and it was great hearing from you. |
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Post by Norm "racerhawk" Parker on Jun 7, 2008 20:30:56 GMT -6
There you go with the "victim" stuff. Between you and Big Time, I'm somehow needing to defend "institutional racism" and "victim" comments that were never made. Can you read? Also, I do not want to drive around at midnight and buy a candy bar at a 7-11, for what it's worth. That might be critically important to you there in Memphis, but it's not a biggie for me. I'm interested in a higher standard of living, a longer lifespan, less pollution, and better public education. Many of the aforementioned countries noted in my reference have those things. However, feel free to appeal to us with baseless, emotional, hyper-opinionated tripe. Facts seem to confuse you. You're a good guy, but one that's totally incapable of reason outside of what you've already decided is proof. In short, you're the perfect wingnut. I like you, though, and would even share a bad Coors (you know the kind made for guys like you to tell you when it's cold). Cheers. Okay Racer ole buddy ole pal.....I think you're pretty sweet too, but remember thy golden rule.....thou shalt not agree with thy SoCal or thy Thunderhawk for they shall lead you astray. As I communicated so eloquently to my retarded Brother SoCal at 3:35 AM, what you are saying, in effect, is the following: 1: What we see day in and day out in our own Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 2: What we see day in and day out in other Countries relative to our own Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 3. The fact that people choosing to emigrate from virtually every Country on the face of the planet because of their substandard quality of life and lack of opportunities overwhelmingly choose to immigrate to our Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 4. The fact that people choosing to emigrate away from the USA relative to people choosing to immigrate to the USA is statistically non existent isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 5. The fact that opportunities for overall success in the USA are far more readily available to anyone who reaches out for them than anywhere else in the world isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 6. A 5% unemployment rate in the USA during what libs call the worst of times isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 7. The fact that none of us on this board can leave our homes without running into one, two or even many recently transplanted immigrants, both legal and illegal, isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 8. The fact that few of us, if any, know anyone who is looking to emmigrate away from our Country isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. 9. The fact that anyone in our Country can walk into an emergency room and receive quality medical care when they need it, regardless of their citizenship status or insurance status isn't enough evidence for you to believe our quality of life in the USA is the best in the world. Yet........ your review of something called the Human Development Index is more than enough to persuade you that what we all see and experience isn't true at all. It is staggering to me that you and your liberal brethren consistently refuse to give the USA the benefit of the doubt even when there is no doubt. People and Countries who write reports such as the Human Development Index and the Greendex have an agenda and that agenda is to bring down the USA. Throughout the history of mankind, there have always been those who want to bring the #1 guy down a notch or two. That will always be the case. That is unless they need something from the USA. It is at that point when the USA goes from being a mean, piece of shit country to everyone's best buddy......until we cut them the check or send them the troops. Once they cash the check or our troops finish defending their freedom (see France), we go right back to being the mean, piece of shit country. Again, it will always be that way. The world will be a much better place once we level the UN. The one thing I would agree with in the findings is the educational and literacy problems. Hate to pile on, but if the left would stop being so tolerant for tolerance sake, increase the educational standards instead of decreasing them and start cracking down on teachers, students and parents and put schools out of business that aren't performing, we would make some headway. That will only happen though when the schools are taken away from union run government employees and are entirely privatized. Exactly what part of this is wrong? #9---Your comments about health care are, on the surface, reasonable enough, but providing only ER care to people who can't afford to purchase commercial insurance is actually compelling proof that our health care system is really screwed up. This topic is beyond the scope of this thread, but ER care is incredibly expensive, and we all pay for it. You see, when preventive health care for all is NOT appreciated and supported, there is ALWAYS something that comes out and bites us all in the ass. BTR has eloquently pointed out that health care is a finite resource. We spend a great deal of our money on urgent things that don't really need to be urgent. This is a symptom of the overall problem of seeing health care as a simple commodity when it is convenient for us to do so, and then scratching our heads when we see the costs of ER visits, jailing the homeless (who are by and large mentally ill), and the like. I don't know if you'll comprehend all of that, but what goes around comes around, and ends up costing us all more later. |
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Post by mattahawk on Jun 7, 2008 22:34:55 GMT -6
1) no doubt in my mind that Iraq is a screwed up mess. I had that argument with my brother this afternoon. I made the point we should have stuck 100,000 in Afghanistan and wiped out the terrorists/taliban and then possibly go after Iran. Assuming they get nuclear weapons by 10' as believed and threaten to wipe Israel off the map. He told me he didn't care what I think and that was that. Anyways now that we are there and we created that mess we owe it to them to clean it up. My brother shared a little of his wisdom with me this afternoon and said he heard on the business channel, I am assuming MSNBC?, apparently some schmuck in Libya said something bad about Israel or Iran getting nukes. I guess this business channel quoted a pentagon source as saying we have 3 or 4 plans for going into Iran and it's probably going to happen soon. Can't wait to see what that does to gas prices.
2) yes our health care system is screwed up. Costs are soaring out of control, people are not getting help that they need because they can't afford to pay the bills. That does not mean that Universal Health Care is the way to go. Look at all the countries that have it and they are worse off then we are. People waiting X amount of years to get MRI's they need now etc. I don't know what the answer is but there has to be a better solution than Universal Health Care which I was once a believer in I will admit.
3)Superracer, you state that people in the military are indoctrinated into the right wing schtick so to speak. Yet isn't it possible that most of the people that are in the military went into it because they feel they have a responsibility to do something good with their lives and help change attitudes about the U.S. along the way. Aside from the ones that do it for college or don't know what else to do with their life that is. After 9-11 there were dozens of stories on tv/newspapers etc about people joining up for that particular purpose. They wanted to see justice served and they felt they owed it to their country to do something. I guess a good question to ask is why did you join?
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Post by Master Blaster on Jun 7, 2008 23:45:51 GMT -6
Greetings from Guam. Iowafan is right, visiting and spending time in other countries without doubt gives you an appreciation for what we have and take for granted everyday. Pulling out of Iraq before they have a working government and a solid defense is a bad idea. I am not defending how we got to this point, just looking at the best way ahead. McCain gets the vote based on that issue. We have a few professors onboard right now from the U of W giving cultural awareness briefs. One is an Iraqi professor that is praying for a McCain victory based on Obamas platform. He is way to worried about what the affect that Iran is going to have on his country without our presence there. Interesting stuff to learn. Look, before we get too flag wavin here, I simply have been trying to assert that with in a few areas, the good ol' US of A is in fact not number one. Life expectancy and access to health care are two of those (by way of example). I am in no way debating that we live in the greatest country on earth. I never said that we weren't the best country, or that we had "institutional racism" or that I believed in a "welfare state." Those comments were made by our resident wingnut ideologues. I presented one fairly objective example. No one else has. BTR and Mr. Late night coors have only asserted their strong opinions based upon their individual experiences. That is fine, but it is decidedly not fact. BTR is so in love with his roots that I believe he said that he's moving to Japan when he gets done raking it in here in Chicago. (Is that emigration, BTR and IaFan?) For what it's worth, I have deep respect for your decision to be a career military person. I served for four years and got out. I really miss the people I worked with, and the spirit in which they worked. Having said that, most career military officers that I interacted with were pretty far right on the political spectrum, and with all due respect, that is to be expected. The right generally favors militaristic expansion and intervention. They are the people that pay your salary and your 1/2 base pay for the rest of your life when you retire. There is a certain inherent lack of objectivity when one political side essentially feeds you. I respect your opinions, but I do take them with a grain of salt, considering my experience with career military folks. Those fine folks are honest and hardworking, but a bit indoctrinated and hardly unbiased. I appreciate the sacrifices that are made daily by our service mena and women on behalf of our government. However, no one will ever convince me that Iraq was ever a good idea, and that staying there indefinitely as an occupying nation will help. We've been there far longer than WW2 with no clear plan. Don't you think American people, as well as family members of those who have been maimed and killed, deserve some accountability on the part of the politicians that erroneously put them amidst this chaos with poor anticipation and planning? This is not to say that Bin Laden and his ilk should not be avenged. It's just that we're in the wrong country. How does staying there for YEARS and YEARS longer help. It would seem that there are healthy terrorists in the tribal lands of Pakistan as we speak. Isn't it good strategy to adapt to one's environment, versus making a political decision that affects all of us for years? McCain will have us there "as long as it takes" and perhaps "a hundred years." NO way. Stay safe, and it was great hearing from you. I don't agree with how we got involved, we did not think it all the way through prior to invading. I do think that action against that country was warranted, given there blatent attacks on our patrols of the no-fly zone, the blatent disregard for over 8 years of UN sanctions, the persecution and genicide of the Kurdish people, the brutal dictatorship that Saddam ran. It is absolutely imparative that we leave that country when the time is correct, not before then. What happens five years from now if a year from now all our troops are removed? Obama won't try and address that issue. If you believe that he can conduct talks with Iran's leadership and believe anything that guy says, I want what you are smoking. Where is Saudi Arabia and the help they promised now that the Saddam threat has been eliminated? Hell, they condemn some of the actions we are currently doing now. Why are they not helping with troops? JM has at least thought it through and acknowledges the undesirable truth that is Iraq. It ain't great news, but it is what needs to be done to maintain stability in the region. Without us, what happens to the region? What if Iran invades or at the very least gets involved with helping to rebuild the country and influence the Iraqi gov't? As far as us leading in all catagories, yeah we aren't the best in every single catagory. I agree with you. But I am not just flag waving when I make the comments that I did. I am falling back on experiences that I have had in other countries. In SA, our females were required to wear head gear. We don't cut off the hands of thieves or jail those that have different morale values. Our people don't block roads with trash trucks when they hold a strike. There is a lot of conservative politics in the service. But we are hardly told what to think when it comes to politics (unlike some countries). I believe in common sense and vote who I think best faces that truth and acts accordingly. McCain wins on that accord. |
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Post by HawksStock on Jun 8, 2008 0:09:25 GMT -6
master cheif,
Saddam out maneuvered both Mi6 and cia. So i can not question war motivation. The UN was dirty in this. I for one am only upset because of the cost, and are refusal to take oil to pay for the "intervention". I personally think such an endeavor was stupid either way (without ICBM's).
We could have a military ready to pounce, give Taiwan and North Korea to China. Give isreal the middle east. Wash your hands clean, improve readiness, close bases, and have our no 1 ally control oil. It's not just American life we are to protect, but the quality of it.
It sounds bad, but if you look at history- see french congo, etc. it's nothing compared to what those "progressive" nations have been doing as late as the 60's. A little statescraft could go a long way.
Keep in mind this is coming from someone who served because he believed service should be mandatory, not just to pay back, but to break down racial and socio economic boundries.
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Post by Iowafan1 on Jun 8, 2008 3:13:27 GMT -6
Greetings from Guam. Iowafan is right, visiting and spending time in other countries without doubt gives you an appreciation for what we have and take for granted everyday. Pulling out of Iraq before they have a working government and a solid defense is a bad idea. I am not defending how we got to this point, just looking at the best way ahead. McCain gets the vote based on that issue. We have a few professors onboard right now from the U of W giving cultural awareness briefs. One is an Iraqi professor that is praying for a McCain victory based on Obamas platform. He is way to worried about what the affect that Iran is going to have on his country without our presence there. Interesting stuff to learn. Hey Master Chief, I did my first tour in Guam with VQ-1 at NAS Agana way back when. Great place. Guam is to Japan what Hawaii is to Americans. Make sure you attend a fiesta and try the Chicken Kelaguen while you're there! |
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