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Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Feb 5, 2009 20:19:35 GMT -6
You could replace "marijuana" with "alcohol" and the statement would be just as valid. You really think so? I honestly don't know....you may be right. Myth: Marijuana is a Gateway Drug. Even if marijuana itself causes minimal harm, it is a dangerous substance because it leads to the use of "harder drugs" like heroin, LSD, and cocaine. Fact: Marijuana does not cause people to use hard drugs. What the gateway theory presents as a causal explanation is a statistic association between common and uncommon drugs, an association that changes over time as different drugs increase and decrease in prevalence. Marijuana is the most popular illegal drug in the United States today. Therefore, people who have used less popular drugs such as heroin, cocaine, and LSD, are likely to have also used marijuana. Most marijuana users never use any other illegal drug. Indeed, for the large majority of people, marijuana is a terminus rather than a gateway drug. Morral, Andrew R.; McCaffrey, Daniel F. and Susan M. Paddock. “Reassessing the marijuana gateway effect.” Addiction 97.12 (2002): 1493-504. United States. National Household Survey on Drug Abuse: Population Estimates 1994. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 1995. ---. National Household Survey on Drug Abuse: Main Findings 1994. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 1996. D.B. Kandel and M. Davies, “Progression to Regular Marijuana Involvement: Phenomenology and Risk Factors for Near-Daily Use,” Vulnerability to Drug Abuse, Eds. M. Glantz and R. Pickens. Washington, D.C.: American Psychological Association, 1992: 211-253. www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/#gateway
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Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Feb 5, 2009 20:22:59 GMT -6
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,488904,00.html When I was a kid, I did this garbage too....and paid for it. It was only after I took my life and my future seriously that I got off that crap......and surprise....things worked out well. Whether those on this board choose to acknowledge it or not, marijuana is not only a wall for most users between success and lack thereof, it is also the gateway to far more serious drugs. Most drug users started with marijuana. This is the reality recognized by most. I'm glad Kellogg's is taking this stand and it looks as if more advertisers are getting ready to follow suit. I don't buy for a minute the correlation between alcohol and marijuana either, nor the "responsible" joint smoker concept. Myth: Marijuana Causes an Amotivational Syndrome. Marijuana makes users passive, apathetic, and uninterested in the future. Students who use marijuana become underachievers and workers who use marijuana become unproductive. Fact: For twenty-five years, researchers have searched for a marijuana-induced amotivational syndrome and have failed to find it. People who are intoxicated constantly, regardless of the drug, are unlikely to be productive members of society. There is nothing about marijuana specifically that causes people to lose their drive and ambition. In laboratory studies, subjects given high doses of marijuana for several days or even several weeks exhibit no decrease in work motivation or productivity. Among working adults, marijuana users tend to earn higher wages than non-users. College students who use marijuana have the same grades as nonusers. Among high school students, heavy use is associated with school failure, but school failure usually comes first. Himmelstein, J.L. The Strange Career of Marihuana: Politics and Ideology of Drug Control in America. Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 1983. Mellinger, G.D. et al. “Drug Use, Academic Performance, and Career Indecision: Longitudinal Data in Search of a Model.” Longitudinal Research on Drug Use: Empirical Findings and Methodological Issues. Ed. D.B. Kandel. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association, 1978. 157-177. Pope, H.G. et al., “Drug Use and Life Style Among College Undergraduates in 1989: A Comparison With 1969 and 1978,” American Journal of Psychiatry 147 (1990): 998-1001. www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/#gateway
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Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Feb 5, 2009 20:54:05 GMT -6
This isn't even something that I'm that passionate about...I barely smoke the shit. It just seems so illogical to NOT legalize it, and tax the shit out of it. Educate people (especially kids) on the potential side effects, and treat it much like alcohol.
I don't understand why people that are so anti 'big government' are so vehemently against this.
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Post by iammrhawkeyes on Feb 5, 2009 23:13:06 GMT -6
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,488904,00.html When I was a kid, I did this garbage too....and paid for it. It was only after I took my life and my future seriously that I got off that crap......and surprise....things worked out well. Whether those on this board choose to acknowledge it or not, marijuana is not only a wall for most users between success and lack thereof, it is also the gateway to far more serious drugs. Most drug users started with marijuana. This is the reality recognized by most. I'm glad Kellogg's is taking this stand and it looks as if more advertisers are getting ready to follow suit. I don't buy for a minute the correlation between alcohol and marijuana either, nor the "responsible" joint smoker concept. Can you buy the casual drinker concept? You have to aknowledge that alcohol is statistically a far greater public danger. Violent crime and domestic abuse cases involving alcohol are exponentially greater than those involving devil weed. Some other interesting tidbits: drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/5323. The Institute of Medicine's 1999 report on marijuana explained that marijuana has been mistaken for a gateway drug in the past because "Patterns in progression of drug use from adolescence to adulthood are strikingly regular. Because it is the most widely used illicit drug, marijuana is predictably the first illicit drug most people encounter. Not surprisingly, most users of other illicit drugs have used marijuana first. In fact, most drug users begin with alcohol and nicotine before marijuana, usually before they are of legal age."[/b] 28. When examining the health affects of marijuana use, the National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse concluded, "A careful search of the literature and testimony of the nation's health officials has not revealed a single human fatality in the United States proven to have resulted solely from ingestion of marihuana. Experiments with the drug in monkeys demonstrated that the dose required for overdose death was enormous and for all practical purposes unachievable by humans smoking marihuana. This is in marked contrast to other substances in common use, most notably alcohol and barbiturate sleeping pills. The WHO reached the same conclusion in 1995.drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/293. (2003): "In 2003, a total of 20,687 persons died of alcohol-induced causes in the United States (Tables 23 and 24). The category 'alcohol-induced causes' includes not only deaths from dependent and nondependent use of alcohol, but also accidental poisoning by alcohol. It excludes unintentional injuries, homicides, and other causes indirectly related to alcohol use as well as deaths due to fetal alcohol syndrome." drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30Annual Causes of Death in the United States Tobacco 435,000 Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity 365,000 Alcohol 85,000 Microbial Agents 75,000 Toxic Agents 55,000 Motor Vehicle Crashes 26,347 Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs 32,000 Suicide 30,622 Incidents Involving Firearms 29,000 Homicide 20,308 Sexual Behaviors 20,000 All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect 17,000 Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin 7,600 Marijuana 0
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Post by NOTTHOR on Feb 5, 2009 23:30:42 GMT -6
Among working adults, marijuana users tend to earn higher wages than non-users. When I worked in the securities biz out in NY, my boss liked to indulge in the "finer things." He had an annual client get away where many of his biggest clients, all dudes with 7 figure incomes and high 7 or 8 figure portfolios, went up to Yankee Stadium for the Yanks' home opener in a charter bus. Me and my brother rolled up there with him one year. No freaking lie, this dude must have had 2 dozen uber wealthy guys in this bus and he pulls out a giant bag of 'dro and starts rolling j's. The bus stops at a park in the Bronx about 3 blocks away from Yankee Stadium and when the door opened, it looked like a scene from a Cheech and Chong movie. He bought the two back rows of seats in one section in the upper deck and these guys sat up there and chiefed for like 3 or 4 innings straight. I ain't one to do that stuff, but for some big government nanny state backer to tell me that it will turn you into a prole or something, well I don't buy it for one second. And for fucks sake, the entire gateway theory is because it's illegal and you have to go through a dope dealer to buy it. Here is the likely conversation: Guy who smokes weed: Hey man, you got a bag? Dope dealer: No, my guy got busted so I'm dry, but I got something that will get you higher. You wanna try it? Guy who smokes weed: No, I just want to score a bag. Guy who smokes weed: Hey man, you got a bag? Dope dealer 2, 3, 4 or 5: No, my guy got busted, the whole fucking town is dry, but I got something that will get you higher. You wanna try it? Guy who smokes weed: Ahh fuckit, I guess, I'm just looking to cop a buzz. Now weed smoker becomes cokehead, crackhead, meth addict, etc. It would not happen if the guy had a normal, steady, legal supply of weed. I would bet that if you drew a Venn diagram of drug users, they all tried cigarettes before they tried weed. Why don't we outlaw those, too? I consider myself as somewhat of a classical liberal and I have a great deal of concern about the scope and reach of the federal government, but after 8 years of giant deficits and the free spending neo-liberal ways of Dubya, I guess that that view is in the substantial minority in the Republican Party. I think Roe versus Wade is wholly wrong and the federal government has no constitutional basis in either outlawing abortion OR telling states that they cannot outlaw abortion. Similarly, I believe that the federal government has no constitutional basis in outlawing marijuana that is grown and consumed locally. If some hippie wants to have a little garden behind his shanty and he smokes the stuff on his own, the Commerce Clause is NOT invoked and there is no basis for federal government involvement.
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Post by Master Blaster on Feb 6, 2009 1:02:05 GMT -6
The problem with your reasoning here Master Chief is that the only negative thing pot, steriods, and prostitution have in common is that they're illegal activities. pot isn't a performance enhancing drug that shrinks your balls and it doesn't exploit women. Pot is just a harmless drug, even less harmful than legal drugs like alcohol and some prescription meds. You're right, legalize it. Heck you can win 6 gold medals and be a pot smoker. That's completely the opposite of what the US Government and those anti-pot commercials will tell ya. Once again, I don't mind responsible use. The point being made is that he is being held responsible for his use, and that is pissing some off because they feel it is unfair. Pot is currently illegal. He got caught. His sponsors are pissed. He apologizes because he doesn't want to lose the green from the sponsor. As far as the prostitution argument, well BTR, that is a subject for another thread. We are back to the degrees of what is right and wrong argument. I draw the line at a different point than you do. Right now, the law says that it is illegal. You say that it is stupid. Get the law changed and I won't bitch. But until then, you aren't exactly walking down the street in broad daylight smokin a jay and asking the local cop for a light. Why? Because you know it is wrong. He broke the freakin law and is going to have to step up and be responsible for his actions. You guys want responsible use, well he is getting his earned results from his actions right now. At least step up and admit that. At least step up and admit that he knew the use of pot might have consequences, he rolled the dice anyway, got caught and is doing what he feels he has to in order to save some grace. At least admit that he knew he was doing something wrong when he did it. Whether or not it is harmless. Whether or not it makes you lazy and takes away all ambition. Whether or not it makes your balls shrivel. That crap doesn't matter. It is immaterial to the argument. He knew he was doing something wrong and did it anyway. Change the law the right way. I'll abide. But until then stop justifying use because it doesn't work. The letter that started this whole thing is bullshit. Its justification lacks substance and is nothing more than excuse making of why he should be special and the rest of us aren't. I work my ass off ten months a year, but that doesn't justify my speeding to work everyday for example. You probably do as well. I still do speed, and if caught I pay the fine. Why, because I accept the punishment based on me acting irresponsibly by not following the speed limit. If I feel that the punishment was wrong, I fight it in court. I try and prove my point. I try to get the right speed limit sign put up. But I don't go around bitching that going 5 over really is harmless and therefore should be legal. BTR- Are there different punishments based on the amount of jane you posess? Of course there is, just like doing 50 over the speed limit gets you a different punishment than 5 over. Small possession is legal in some parts of Cali. You want to smoke? Move there. You want to smoke where you are currently? Get the law changed. Or hide in the basement and blaze up. But quit freaking whining that it isn't fair because it does no harm, is actually medicinal, etc. You don't like it, change it. Not that important? Than quit your complaining. But quit justifying illegal use because everyone has got the wrong idea. It doesn't fly in the face of responsible use. I'm off the soap box. Hallalujah.
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Post by lpcalihawk on Feb 6, 2009 9:08:40 GMT -6
USA Swimming has suspended a guy who did not break any rules, per their own policy.
IaFan continues to ignore hard scientific evidence and continues to spout the myths of marijuana from the 1950's. Don't let the facts get in your way, pal.
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Post by mattahawk on Feb 6, 2009 10:31:27 GMT -6
I see your point BTR but I gotta say, +1 to MCPO and IaFan. Not so much on Iafan's reasoning but that it is just wrong to do it. The same with alcohol abuse, and any other drugs that lead to crime, marital/spousal abuse etc. So there are some rich MoFo's out there doing weed. Big deal. I would be willing to wager there are 10X the amount of proles doing it. And what happens when they want to get high and don't have the cash to buy the weed? They steal from their parents, their neighbors, the local business etc. in order to have something to sell so they can buy the weed. Pretty sure it's a fact that crime goes up where there is rampant, illegal drug use.
Phelps getting suspended is Bullshit.
Kellogs was not going to renew the contract with Phelps anyways. He isn't out anything, yet. There is a possibility he will lose some sponsors yet this week or by next.
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Post by lpcalihawk on Feb 6, 2009 10:56:03 GMT -6
I see your point BTR but I gotta say, +1 to MCPO and IaFan. Not so much on Iafan's reasoning but that it is just wrong to do it. The same with alcohol abuse, and any other drugs that lead to crime, marital/spousal abuse etc. So there are some rich MoFo's out there doing weed. Big deal. I would be willing to wager there are 10X the amount of proles doing it. And what happens when they want to get high and don't have the cash to buy the weed? They steal from their parents, their neighbors, the local business etc. in order to have something to sell so they can buy the weed. Pretty sure it's a fact that crime goes up where there is rampant, illegal drug use. Phelps getting suspended is Bullshit. Kellogs was not going to renew the contract with Phelps anyways. He isn't out anything, yet. There is a possibility he will lose some sponsors yet this week or by next. The assertion that smoking weed makes you an unproductive member of society is pure bullshit. Please re-read Itheus' post that cited a scientific study.....sorry if reading scientific studies hurts your head. Quit buying into the myths of a generation that is completely out of touch on this issue.
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Post by iammrhawkeyes on Feb 6, 2009 11:03:24 GMT -6
And what happens when they want to get high and don't have the cash to buy the weed? They steal from their parents, their neighbors, the local business etc. in order to have something to sell so they can buy the weed. Holy shit, matta. Reefer Madness was filmed over 70 years ago.
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Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Feb 6, 2009 13:34:11 GMT -6
The problem with your reasoning here Master Chief is that the only negative thing pot, steriods, and prostitution have in common is that they're illegal activities. pot isn't a performance enhancing drug that shrinks your balls and it doesn't exploit women. Pot is just a harmless drug, even less harmful than legal drugs like alcohol and some prescription meds. You're right, legalize it. Heck you can win 6 gold medals and be a pot smoker. That's completely the opposite of what the US Government and those anti-pot commercials will tell ya. Once again, I don't mind responsible use. The point being made is that he is being held responsible for his use, and that is pissing some off because they feel it is unfair. Pot is currently illegal. He got caught. His sponsors are pissed. He apologizes because he doesn't want to lose the green from the sponsor. As far as the prostitution argument, well BTR, that is a subject for another thread. We are back to the degrees of what is right and wrong argument. I draw the line at a different point than you do. Right now, the law says that it is illegal. You say that it is stupid. Get the law changed and I won't bitch. But until then, you aren't exactly walking down the street in broad daylight smokin a jay and asking the local cop for a light. Why? Because you know it is wrong. He broke the freakin law and is going to have to step up and be responsible for his actions. You guys want responsible use, well he is getting his earned results from his actions right now. At least step up and admit that. At least step up and admit that he knew the use of pot might have consequences, he rolled the dice anyway, got caught and is doing what he feels he has to in order to save some grace. At least admit that he knew he was doing something wrong when he did it. Whether or not it is harmless. Whether or not it makes you lazy and takes away all ambition. Whether or not it makes your balls shrivel. That crap doesn't matter. It is immaterial to the argument. He knew he was doing something wrong and did it anyway. Change the law the right way. I'll abide. But until then stop justifying use because it doesn't work. The letter that started this whole thing is bullshit. Its justification lacks substance and is nothing more than excuse making of why he should be special and the rest of us aren't. I work my ass off ten months a year, but that doesn't justify my speeding to work everyday for example. You probably do as well. I still do speed, and if caught I pay the fine. Why, because I accept the punishment based on me acting irresponsibly by not following the speed limit. If I feel that the punishment was wrong, I fight it in court. I try and prove my point. I try to get the right speed limit sign put up. But I don't go around bitching that going 5 over really is harmless and therefore should be legal. BTR- Are there different punishments based on the amount of jane you posess? Of course there is, just like doing 50 over the speed limit gets you a different punishment than 5 over. Small possession is legal in some parts of Cali. You want to smoke? Move there. You want to smoke where you are currently? Get the law changed. Or hide in the basement and blaze up. But quit freaking whining that it isn't fair because it does no harm, is actually medicinal, etc. You don't like it, change it. Not that important? Than quit your complaining. But quit justifying illegal use because everyone has got the wrong idea. It doesn't fly in the face of responsible use. I'm off the soap box. Hallalujah. MCPO, I respect what you're saying...I've had to pay consequences before. I guess my focus is more on the hypocrisy of the government and the American public on the the use of pot, verses specifically Mr. Phelps' right to use...as well as the stupidity of it being legal in the first place. If you click on the actual link, it has a thesis statement of "Smoking pot shouldn't be a crime. Or the public's business." This is the context I'm reading it in, not neccessarily just Michael Phelps' right to smoke.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Feb 6, 2009 13:45:35 GMT -6
(1)We are back to the degrees of what is right and wrong argument. I draw the line at a different point than you do. Right now, the law says that it is illegal. You say that it is stupid. Get the law changed and I won't bitch. But until then, you aren't exactly walking down the street in broad daylight smokin a jay and asking the local cop for a light. Why? Because you know it is wrong. (2)Small possession is legal in some parts of Cali. (1) You are making the "If X is legal, it is moral" and "If Y is illegal, it is immoral" argument. I do not think this is persuasive in the least. During WWII, it was legal for the US government to intern Japanese-Americans. Was it moral? I don't think so. Up until a few decades ago, it was illegal for whites and blacks to get married in certain states. Does that mean miscegenation was immoral just because some guy in a statehouse somewhere said it was? I don't think so. There are hundreds of similar examples in our nation's history. Given the state of where our economy is, I think it is time for a new way of thinking about big government. We're told that the economy is bad because government is not big enough, despite the fact that government on all levels accounted for close to half of GDP last year. We're told that to get us out of the funk, we just need more government, if we can get up to 60% of GDP as government spending we'll be fine. Maybe less government, not more government is what we need. Maybe we need to cut government spending by 10% instead of increasing it by 10% and cut the number of pages of federal law by 10% instead of increasing them by 10%. Sadly, we will continue down a path of more power flowing from DC rather than the other way around. (2) No, it is not. Marijuana is illegal under federal law. Federal law is the supreme law of the land. Despite the fact that some states or counties have "decriminalized" marijuana, the fact remains that until it the federal government lifts its ban, marijuana is illegal everywhere in the United States. The great laboratory of the states experiment ended decades ago with the liberal fascist Rooseveltian regime. Power to the people and not the liberal fascists in DC.
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Post by Master Blaster on Feb 6, 2009 13:58:40 GMT -6
Absolutely not at all arguing morality of the act of smoking pot. I am arguing the fact that it is illegal, therefore wrong. Therefore, he needs to be responsible for doing an act that he knows is illegal. If losing his ride, his freedom, his sponsorship is the result, than he brought that on himself by his own actions. And the beautiful thing about the power of the people is that all those things you mentioned were overturned by the majority who deemed it necessary to redefine the morality of their generation. If you want pot to be okay, get the people behind you, change the laws and make it so. But until then, if you get caught and Kellogs says piss off, so be it.
You are correct on the second statement. I was not being specific enough in my statement. Certain portions of the state have gone in contradiction of the federal law. That was one of the basis of the show we discussed before. Small amount growth in that county was "legalized" at the local level. I also want the greatest power of the government to be held at the level of the people.
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Post by Master Blaster on Feb 6, 2009 14:00:32 GMT -6
Once again, I don't mind responsible use. The point being made is that he is being held responsible for his use, and that is pissing some off because they feel it is unfair. Pot is currently illegal. He got caught. His sponsors are pissed. He apologizes because he doesn't want to lose the green from the sponsor. As far as the prostitution argument, well BTR, that is a subject for another thread. We are back to the degrees of what is right and wrong argument. I draw the line at a different point than you do. Right now, the law says that it is illegal. You say that it is stupid. Get the law changed and I won't bitch. But until then, you aren't exactly walking down the street in broad daylight smokin a jay and asking the local cop for a light. Why? Because you know it is wrong. He broke the freakin law and is going to have to step up and be responsible for his actions. You guys want responsible use, well he is getting his earned results from his actions right now. At least step up and admit that. At least step up and admit that he knew the use of pot might have consequences, he rolled the dice anyway, got caught and is doing what he feels he has to in order to save some grace. At least admit that he knew he was doing something wrong when he did it. Whether or not it is harmless. Whether or not it makes you lazy and takes away all ambition. Whether or not it makes your balls shrivel. That crap doesn't matter. It is immaterial to the argument. He knew he was doing something wrong and did it anyway. Change the law the right way. I'll abide. But until then stop justifying use because it doesn't work. The letter that started this whole thing is bullshit. Its justification lacks substance and is nothing more than excuse making of why he should be special and the rest of us aren't. I work my ass off ten months a year, but that doesn't justify my speeding to work everyday for example. You probably do as well. I still do speed, and if caught I pay the fine. Why, because I accept the punishment based on me acting irresponsibly by not following the speed limit. If I feel that the punishment was wrong, I fight it in court. I try and prove my point. I try to get the right speed limit sign put up. But I don't go around bitching that going 5 over really is harmless and therefore should be legal. BTR- Are there different punishments based on the amount of jane you posess? Of course there is, just like doing 50 over the speed limit gets you a different punishment than 5 over. Small possession is legal in some parts of Cali. You want to smoke? Move there. You want to smoke where you are currently? Get the law changed. Or hide in the basement and blaze up. But quit freaking whining that it isn't fair because it does no harm, is actually medicinal, etc. You don't like it, change it. Not that important? Than quit your complaining. But quit justifying illegal use because everyone has got the wrong idea. It doesn't fly in the face of responsible use. I'm off the soap box. Hallalujah. MCPO, I respect what you're saying...I've had to pay consequences before. I guess my focus is more on the hypocrisy of the government and the American public on the the use of pot, verses specifically Mr. Phelps' right to use...as well as the stupidity of it being legal in the first place. If you click on the actual link, it has a thesis statement of "Smoking pot shouldn't be a crime. Or the public's business." This is the context I'm reading it in, not neccessarily just Michael Phelps' right to smoke. Fair enough, I didn't read the link, something which I admit I am often guilty of doing.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Feb 6, 2009 14:32:51 GMT -6
Absolutely not at all arguing morality of the act of smoking pot. I am arguing the fact that it is illegal, therefore wrong. Therefore, he needs to be responsible for doing an act that he knows is illegal. If losing his ride, his freedom, his sponsorship is the result, than he brought that on himself by his own actions. And the beautiful thing about the power of the people is that all those things you mentioned were overturned by the majority who deemed it necessary to redefine the morality of their generation. If you want pot to be okay, get the people behind you, change the laws and make it so. But until then, if you get caught and Kellogs says piss off, so be it. You are correct on the second statement. I was not being specific enough in my statement. Certain portions of the state have gone in contradiction of the federal law. That was one of the basis of the show we discussed before. Small amount growth in that county was "legalized" at the local level. I also want the greatest power of the government to be held at the level of the people. Morality means a code of conduct which is held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong - You were arguing morality - you're saying it's illegal, therefore it is wrong. You are letting the line of legal/illegal drive your code of what you think is moral or immoral. You have been trained very well by the military, a good soldier must live by and exercise the very code you have articulated. "And the beautiful thing about the power of the people is that all those things you mentioned were overturned by the majority who deemed it necessary to redefine the morality of their generation." - Wrong, wrong, wrong. The "tyranny of the majority" is what inflicted the harm in the first instance. Korematsu (Japanese SCOTUS internment case) has never been expressly overturned. The true victories of the civil rights movement were in the courtroom, not on the voting ballot. If you were truly an advocate of power to the people, you'd willingly concede that if California passes a law through a ballot initiative (what is more democratic than that?) making possession of a small amount of marijuana legal, that some big government bureaucrat in DC has no business overturning that law. The issue is very distinct from the southern states passing a law through a ballot initiative barring persons of color from exercising constitutionally guaranteed civil rights. In that instance, the federal government has to act to protect those persons from the tyranny of the majority, but in California's case where freedom is being expanded and no one is having their rights trounced on, I cannot determine a logical reason for the federal government to care one way or the other. I guess an entity that is always at war and has actual people called czars on its staff isn't really the touchy feely "of the people, by the people, for the people" government that our forefathers gave us.
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Post by Master Blaster on Feb 6, 2009 21:53:50 GMT -6
Of course I have been trained and live by this code of responsibility/ accountability. I've done it for 20+years. Actually, 21 as of tomorrow. Good grief. But to me it isn't a morality issue, its a responsibility issue. That is the way I see it. I expect and demand accountability for actions. And I expect the same fair treatment for people regardless of class, race, sex, etc. And you are refusing to acknowledge that the majority opinion not only created those situations, but fixed a lot of them as well. I hope you can see that as well. The court room isn't the only place that government actions have been influenced by any stretch. War protestors changed the outcome and extent of involvement in Vietnam. Public outcry changed military handling procedures in Abu Graib. The cali city in Marijuana Inc has a proposition on the ballot to change the size of the home grown plot size. Most ballots now contain proposition x to effectively change a law. This "conversation" is rapidly growing into a different topic. Which in some aspects is good, but we are also straying from the issue at hand. And for the most part, the federal government has adopted a wait and see, watch but don't take action mentality when it came to the Cali projects on Marijuana, Inc. So the rights were not being trampled except in the case of those that grew a little to big. And that is arguable in that they violated the city codes on the size of the plot, etc. and thus made themselves vulnerable. As with most things there is no hard fast rule on how things are handled. Generalizations kill. But Phelps made his choice when he put that bong to his lips. He is suffering from his own personal choice. Not from my over inflated sense of morality (or yours for that matter).
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Post by hawkeyedug on Feb 7, 2009 8:45:09 GMT -6
You could replace "marijuana" with "alcohol" and the statement would be just as valid. You really think so? I honestly don't know....you may be right. When I was first about to post that I was going to use something like bread, but knew it would be attacked. When I actually put a bit of thought into it alcohol made perfect sense. A great majority of people start drinking illegally, therefore have to go through illegal means to obtain it. I have no statistics at all, but I would guess a large proportion of smokers have their first while drunk or drinking, again, probably underage.
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Post by mattahawk on Feb 7, 2009 21:52:17 GMT -6
I see your point BTR but I gotta say, +1 to MCPO and IaFan. Not so much on Iafan's reasoning but that it is just wrong to do it. The same with alcohol abuse, and any other drugs that lead to crime, marital/spousal abuse etc. So there are some rich MoFo's out there doing weed. Big deal. I would be willing to wager there are 10X the amount of proles doing it. And what happens when they want to get high and don't have the cash to buy the weed? They steal from their parents, their neighbors, the local business etc. in order to have something to sell so they can buy the weed. Pretty sure it's a fact that crime goes up where there is rampant, illegal drug use. Phelps getting suspended is Bullshit. Kellogs was not going to renew the contract with Phelps anyways. He isn't out anything, yet. There is a possibility he will lose some sponsors yet this week or by next. The assertion that smoking weed makes you an unproductive member of society is pure bullshit. Please re-read Itheus' post that cited a scientific study.....sorry if reading scientific studies hurts your head. Quit buying into the myths of a generation that is completely out of touch on this issue. Like several above I usually don't, won't take the time to read links. I would still be willing to wager though if you do drugs, there is an excellent chance you have or will commit a crime to continue that portion of your life. Not all people have cash on hand or in the bank at any given moment to go buy a bag. You show me some dumbass out there with money on hand to go buy an ounce whenever he wants and I can come up with a list of people that don't have the cash and still do drugs. Where is the money coming from?
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Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Feb 8, 2009 0:44:29 GMT -6
The assertion that smoking weed makes you an unproductive member of society is pure bullshit. Please re-read Itheus' post that cited a scientific study.....sorry if reading scientific studies hurts your head. Quit buying into the myths of a generation that is completely out of touch on this issue. Like several above I usually don't, won't take the time to read links. I would still be willing to wager though if you do drugs, there is an excellent chance you have or will commit a crime to continue that portion of your life. Not all people have cash on hand or in the bank at any given moment to go buy a bag. You show me some dumbass out there with money on hand to go buy an ounce whenever he wants and I can come up with a list of people that don't have the cash and still do drugs. Where is the money coming from? So you will refute scientific evidence for your own opinion...that's fine. Marijuana is not addictive in any way shape or form. When you were in college, or when you were younger...didn't have much money, and couldn't buy a case of beer...did you go rob somebody?? Mary J is not crack, like the government wants you to believe. Myth: Marijuana is Highly Addictive. Long term marijuana users experience physical dependence and withdrawal, and often need professional drug treatment to break their marijuana habits. Fact: Most people who smoke marijuana smoke it only occasionally. A small minority of Americans - less than 1 percent - smoke marijuana on a daily basis. An even smaller minority develop a dependence on marijuana. Some people who smoke marijuana heavily and frequently stop without difficulty. Others seek help from drug treatment professionals. Marijuana does not cause physical dependence. If people experience withdrawal symptoms at all, they are remarkably mild. United States. Dept. of Health and Human Services. DASIS Report Series, Differences in Marijuana Admissions Based on Source of Referral. 2002. June 24 2005. Johnson, L.D., et al. “National Survey Results on Drug Use from the Monitoring the Future Study, 1975-1994, Volume II: College Students and Young Adults.” Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 1996. Kandel, D.B., et al. “Prevalence and demographic correlates of symptoms of dependence on cigarettes, alcohol, marijuana and cocaine in the U.S. population.” Drug and Alcohol Dependence 44 (1997):11-29. Stephens, R.S., et al. “Adult marijuana users seeking treatment.” Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 61 (1993): 1100-1104. Most likely, if somebody doesn't have the money for it, they'll just go through the day sober. Can't say the same for an alcoholic. I mean, I don't want to sit here and give a seminar on the myths of the 'sticky icky', but man...I'm just hearing 1960's ignorance. Should 'the blacks' still drink from a different fountain, too???
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Post by twinegarden on Feb 8, 2009 14:17:28 GMT -6
This may not mean anything but as much as I respect Micheal Phelps and all of his accomplishments I always thought he was uber-douchey. Finding out he smokes a little weed makes him much cooler in my mind. I'm uber-douchey too though so this shouldn't come as a suprise.
He COULD lead the way towards legalizing weed if he really wanted too. . . too bad he is blowing that golden opprotunity in favor of millions of endorsement dollars. Can't say that I blame him but if he really wanted to he could make a mark much bigger than winning 14 gold medals and that is really saying something.
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Post by mattahawk on Feb 8, 2009 23:51:56 GMT -6
I wouldn't really classify it as 60's ignorance bince back in the 60's everybody was smoking it up. I would say I tend to agree with MCPO on this one pretty closely. If you want to do it fine but if you steal or rob to support the smoking of it consider it a felony. Put their sorry ass in jail. If you are high as a kite AND driving, it's a felony and your ass is off to jail. JMO.
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Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Feb 9, 2009 8:26:28 GMT -6
If you are high as a kite AND driving, it's a felony and your ass is off to jail. JMO. As I stated before, I think it should be treated as alcohol. If you're high as a kite AND driving, it should be a DUI. I guess I just don't understand the notion that somebody would steal or commit acts of violence if they run out of pot. Like I said, I hardly smoke it, but have been around it enough to know that's just simply not true.
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Post by mattahawk on Feb 9, 2009 10:07:12 GMT -6
On a morning talk show this chick just said smoking pot can increase your risk of testicular cancer. I don't know if it's true, or if she was just trying to be funny. She said it was in a study just done. If you want to test it go ahead. Let me know how that goes for you.
If you have a bag of weed and you are walking down the street in a, we'll be nice here and say, shadier part of DSM, smoking a joint. If some guy comes up to you, smells it and says hey, smells good. Give me the rest of what you got or else. You can deny it all you want, people do rob, steal from other people in order to support their habit. I know you are going to say pot is not addictive or a habit but if you smoke it every day, some do, it IS a habit.
How many people die on the mexican border every week in drug wars? Yes I know it is not only pot they are bringing over but it is happening. Ask a cop in DSM what effect pot has on crime in your area. I cannot imagine for the life of me that there is not a cop out there that knows the affect pot has on crime.
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Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Feb 9, 2009 11:21:30 GMT -6
"If you have a bag of weed and you are walking down the street in a, we'll be nice here and say, shadier part of DSM, smoking a joint. If some guy comes up to you, smells it and says hey, smells good. Give me the rest of what you got or else. You can deny it all you want, people do rob, steal from other people in order to support their habit. I know you are going to say pot is not addictive or a habit but if you smoke it every day, some do, it IS a habit."
WHAT?!
Where id you come up with scenario?? A movie?? What if some guy was walking down the street in the ghetto (apparently that's where all this happens) with a 40, and another guy says, hey that looks good, give it to me or else...
This reasoning is ludicris. That makes the guy a thief. As a thief, he would probably go after a wallet or a cell phone.
You've already read, I hope, somebody who takes 911 calls never hear anything related to pot...maybe you missed that?
As for the fatalities trying to stop the importing of marijuana? IMO that just supports a reason to legalize it. Stop the silly meaningless deaths/injuries over pot.
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Post by roxxstar on Feb 9, 2009 14:16:25 GMT -6
The assertion that smoking weed makes you an unproductive member of society is pure bullshit. Please re-read Itheus' post that cited a scientific study.....sorry if reading scientific studies hurts your head. Quit buying into the myths of a generation that is completely out of touch on this issue. Like several above I usually don't, won't take the time to read links. I would still be willing to wager though if you do drugs, there is an excellent chance you have or will commit a crime to continue that portion of your life. Not all people have cash on hand or in the bank at any given moment to go buy a bag. You show me some dumbass out there with money on hand to go buy an ounce whenever he wants and I can come up with a list of people that don't have the cash and still do drugs. Where is the money coming from? I do "drugs". I've never committed a crime to support my "habit". I think you are confusing weed with crack. As far as your question as to where is the money coming from; you can say the same thing about the bums hanging out on the corner palming 40's all day. Where is the money coming from? I guarantee you there are a lot more people committing crimes to fund their alcohol dependency then their pot dependency. What it boils down to is hypocrisy. The government says its OK for us to suck down as many cigarettes and 40's as we want (both of which kill ass loads of people). Yet, when it comes to puffing a J, it's a crime. The reasoning behind that is ludicrous. All outlawing pot is accomplishing is costing taxpayers more money. It's a pointless and un-winnable war. The only thing it succeeds at is giving otherwise good citizens a criminal record and contributes to the fucking insane jail overcrowding problem we have. When it comes to this issue, the government is fucking retarded. And so is any one else that has a problem with the Rasta's herb.
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