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Post by Gumbyhawk on Dec 20, 2010 18:41:37 GMT -6
Show of hands:
glad that it failed or upset that it failed?
Count me as glad. Fucking GIDDY-glad in fact. Some will call me an asshole for that and that's fine. I've been called much worse.
But I guess I am fucking tired of everyone including myself giving so much already to illegals and their illegal kids. Bout damned fucking time Washington wised up and said "no" to these folks for once.
I doubt it will matter. The illegal kids will probably just sneak into college and class anyway. The apple never falls far from the fucking tree.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Dec 20, 2010 19:17:57 GMT -6
This one's a tough call. The kid has likely done nothing wrong, but if you reward the kid you incentivize the parents in the future to break the law.
About 6 years ago, I represented a lady at the legal clinic who was 52 years old and facing deportation. Her parents brought her to the US when she was like 2 or 3. She had no idea when. She had gone to American schools and worked long term in some job she had been working since like the '70's and she claimed she didn't even know she wasn't American because she had a clean Social Security card and had gotten a driver's license way back before they diligenced the immigration stuff and had just kept renewing it with no problem. She didn't speak Spanish and everything was totally normal for her. She went to go get married and a check at the clerk of court's office or whatever turned up the fact that she was illegal. They told her and she was all like "no, there's a mistake." But she couldn't get a marriage license until it was cleared up. Next thing she knows, she gets arrested by ICE or or whatever it used to be called at her house one morning. She was not eligible to get a spousal visa even though her husband was American because she had been illegally in the US for so long, so she was technically disqualified from entry into the US once a deportation order was finalized.
That is what I have a problem with. First, she didn't do crap wrong. She had no business in Mexico, she didn't speak Spanish or know anyone down there. Her parents were in the wrong, but she didn't even know it. Second, for darn near any other crime there is some statute of limitations, but with immigration crimes, the government argues that it is ongoing and thus there is no SOL. I'm sorry, but if you go 50 years with no police interaction that raises suspicions at some point they just have to give up. There was no remedy for that lady. I don't know what happened to her, but for every person leeching off the welfare state, there is another story like that lady's (well, maybe not as many, but there are plenty out there). The issue is that we need to curtail the welfare state first and foremost so that even if someone rolls in and evades capture, they aren't mooching. Also need to lock the borders down to the extent practicable, but punishing people who themselves did nothing wrong with economic isolation and threats of deportation offends my sensibilities. But at the same time, creating a massive incentive for illegal immigration is bogus after going through the whole routine with my wife and seeing what people who want to come here legally have to do. That's why this one is so tough.
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Post by Plez Azkins on Dec 20, 2010 21:29:34 GMT -6
Is there a benefit to giving someone partial citizenship (if that's even possible) in that they would have to register with the government and get a real identification? I just don't understand why we wouldn't want someone who busts their butt in college or the military to join our ranks.
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Post by Gumbyhawk on Dec 20, 2010 21:41:29 GMT -6
I agree that this one is not entirely cut-and-dry. I am against the Dream Act mostly because I don't trust the govt to enforce anything when people don't comply with the rules. Example: the students have to be of good moral character. If kicked out of the military, they go back to being illegal, etc. Well for one, do you really want the govt to decide what constitutes "good moral character"? Secondly, if some kid were booted from the military, are they going to get deported pronto? No. You and I both know they won't.
However, as in BTR's case above, I think this woman deserves to have citizenship. She's done everything else asked of her and has been doing it for around 50 years. To me, she is an American citizen.
My beef is like BTR mentioned, I cannot get behind something that sweetens the pot even more for illegals to cross the border. Until the govt gets serious about closing the border, creating more of an encouragement is simply counter-productive. It's like throwing out more bird seed for the bluejays and then bitching about all the crows in your yard.
I'm actually all for some immigration reform but sorry.... the Dream Act doesn't cut it. It needs to be a bit harder than simply graduating high school (at taxpayer expense by the way) or getting a GED. It should ask more from these students. Make military service a requirement if able-bodied. Take a citizenship exam. Require residency for more than five years. They must have never played soccer.... whatever. Just make damned sure they have "bought in" to the American way of life. I can tell you from my own experiences that many of the kids who marched in Mtown this year in support of the Dream Act are the same ones who marched to the courthouse a few years back and put a Mexican flag on top of the US flag. So which is it, kids? Do you want to be an American or not? How bout you serve four years in the military and we find out?
The Dream Act as it was drawn up was a fucking joke and we might as well have just given citizenship to every one of these kids. So yeah, I am glad it failed.
The sad thing is that these kids don't even see that they essentially fucked themselves from all of these stunts they have pulled in the past with their demonstrations and what-not. Reap what you sow.
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Post by Gumbyhawk on Dec 20, 2010 21:42:47 GMT -6
I just don't understand why we wouldn't want someone who busts their butt in college or the military to join our ranks. Agreed. It's just that that wasn't really a requirement.
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Post by Plez Azkins on Dec 20, 2010 21:56:25 GMT -6
Makes sense, Gumby.
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Post by lpcalihawk on Dec 21, 2010 9:25:00 GMT -6
Gumby.....I think we both know that YOU and I don't pay shit for these people. I'm pretty confident that if any of our tax dollars are going directly to pay benefits for illegals (even indirectly) it's probably pennies. BTR and his "elites" probably have a greater portion of their tax dollars supporting programs that benefit illegals. So, the "I'm tired of paying for illegals" argument from people in middle class tax brackets are pretty bogus.
I see nothing wrong with a path to citizenship through civic duty and education. We should enforce the same thing on the white trash and lazy homies who drain the system considerably more than the "illegals". Tell the folks in the trailer park living off welfare checks that in order to maintain citizenship in this country....you either start working a regular job or the government will assign you one (I know that sounds Commie...but who gives a shit at this point) thru the military or some other program that may actually benefit society. Overall, BTR's point is probably the best.....take care of the overall welfare state in this country and you lessen the incentive anyone has to come here and stay illegally......
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Post by socal on Dec 21, 2010 13:56:24 GMT -6
What in the hell would "sweeten the pot" for illegals about the DREAM act?
Your scenario: 1) Decide to make kid American. 2) Fuck and give birth in non-US country. 3) Migrate to US after child is born. 4) Raise the kid with values that lead them to college or the military. 5) ? 6) Profit!
What is somehow sweeter about that scenario than this one: 1) Decide to come to America 2) Migrate to US 3) Fuck and give birth in US. 4) ? 5) Profit!
At least there is something of value being required in the DREAM Act.
Hell, I know some multi-generational Americans that are absolute douchebags that I hate to think might represent what it is to be an American. Those that survive the DREAM Act requirements will have at least raised themselves a few notches above those douchebags.
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Post by Gumbyhawk on Dec 21, 2010 21:48:48 GMT -6
Gumby.....I think we both know that YOU and I don't pay shit for these people. I'm pretty confident that if any of our tax dollars are going directly to pay benefits for illegals (even indirectly) it's probably pennies. BTR and his "elites" probably have a greater portion of their tax dollars supporting programs that benefit illegals. So, the "I'm tired of paying for illegals" argument from people in middle class tax brackets are pretty bogus. I see nothing wrong with a path to citizenship through civic duty and education. We should enforce the same thing on the white trash and lazy homies who drain the system considerably more than the "illegals". Tell the folks in the trailer park living off welfare checks that in order to maintain citizenship in this country....you either start working a regular job or the government will assign you one (I know that sounds Commie...but who gives a shit at this point) thru the military or some other program that may actually benefit society. Overall, BTR's point is probably the best.....take care of the overall welfare state in this country and you lessen the incentive anyone has to come here and stay illegally...... Honestly, I couldn't agree more and think that there should be a HELL of an overhaul on the welfare system as well. But that's another thread....
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Post by Gumbyhawk on Dec 21, 2010 21:58:14 GMT -6
What in the hell would "sweeten the pot" for illegals about the DREAM act? Your scenario: 1) Decide to make kid American. 2) Fuck and give birth in non-US country. 3) Migrate to US after child is born. 4) Raise the kid with values that lead them to college or the military. 5) ? 6) Profit! What is somehow sweeter about that scenario than this one: 1) Decide to come to America 2) Migrate to US 3) Fuck and give birth in US. 4) ? 5) Profit! At least there is something of value being required in the DREAM Act. Hell, I know some multi-generational Americans that are absolute douchebags that I hate to think might represent what it is to be an American. Those that survive the DREAM Act requirements will have at least raised themselves a few notches above those douchebags. The requirements for the Dream Act as it was presented were not stringent enough for the "perks" that they would have received. C'mon. Graduate high school and be of "good moral character". We can do better than that. If they want to be an American citizen so bad, prove it. To me, that shouldn't be too much to ask. I would have pushed for mandatory 4 year terms in the military or AmeriCorps or something. This would serve a dual-purpose: they will have "bought in" by the time they are done and secondly, they are much more likely to be contributing members of society at the end of their 4 year stint. And yes, I think this requirement should be applied to many other segments of society in case you were wondering....
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Post by thunderhawk on Dec 21, 2010 22:19:25 GMT -6
Shouldn't we want to keep people in this country who want to go to college or serve in the military?
There's about 100 million other deadbeats I'd rather kick out of America before ejecting these people.
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Post by thejesus on Dec 22, 2010 8:44:01 GMT -6
I have a simple solution. If you are living in America, you are an American. I really don’t understand the “Get rid of the illegals/Secure the borders/My tax dollars are paying for their healthcare/THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!” crowd. But then again, I don’t really understand the majority of the public, so that’s not really surprising.
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Post by socal on Dec 22, 2010 10:18:30 GMT -6
I have a simple solution. If you are living in America, you are an American. I really don’t understand the “Get rid of the illegals/Secure the borders/My tax dollars are paying for their healthcare/THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!” crowd. But then again, I don’t really understand the majority of the public, so that’s not really surprising.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2010 10:47:13 GMT -6
DERK ER DER!!!!
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Post by Gumbyhawk on Dec 22, 2010 19:43:10 GMT -6
I have a simple solution. If you are living in America, you are an American. I really don’t understand the “Get rid of the illegals/Secure the borders/My tax dollars are paying for their healthcare/THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!” crowd. But then again, I don’t really understand the majority of the public, so that’s not really surprising. Spend some quality time in Marshalltown and you might start to understand.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Dec 25, 2010 20:37:18 GMT -6
You dudes seen Food, Inc.? I just watched that shit and they had a segment where they basically said that following NAFTA, cheap, heavily subsidized US corn has completely obliterated the farms in Mexico and has sent over a million Mexicans to the US. Then, they went on to show ads en espanol for shit like the IBP Perry plant. What the fucking fuck?
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Post by Gumbyhawk on Dec 26, 2010 13:24:49 GMT -6
You dudes seen Food, Inc.? I just watched that shit and they had a segment where they basically said that following NAFTA, cheap, heavily subsidized US corn has completely obliterated the farms in Mexico and has sent over a million Mexicans to the US. Then, they went on to show ads en espanol for shit like the IBP Perry plant. What the fucking fuck? Yeah, I've seen the movie. Actually, I highly recommend it. It does a great job of shedding light to how one passed bill (NAFTA) has ripple effects in other areas.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Dec 26, 2010 14:41:33 GMT -6
You dudes seen Food, Inc.? I just watched that shit and they had a segment where they basically said that following NAFTA, cheap, heavily subsidized US corn has completely obliterated the farms in Mexico and has sent over a million Mexicans to the US. Then, they went on to show ads en espanol for shit like the IBP Perry plant. What the fucking fuck? Yeah, I've seen the movie. Actually, I highly recommend it. It does a great job of shedding light to how one passed bill (NAFTA) has ripple effects in other areas. I actually thought the most interesting part was the part on Monsanto. The litigation strategy that was highlighted in Indiana was insane. I get that they have a patent on the seed and that the farmer is only buying a one time license to plant it and that's fine, but that poor bastard who was getting sued for aiding and abetting patent infringement for running the seed splitting operation (how is he supposed to know who has a license?) and the guy who had never used GMO seeds but whose field was contaminated with pollen from GMO soybeans of neighboring farmers and who was also terrified of litigation made me want to win a $200 mm MegaBall so I could spend my time helping dudes like that pro bono. I'm very sympathetic to Monsanto, you've got to protect your patent, but to the extent it becomes infringed through no action of the farmer via natural processes and that infringement is used as the basis of a suit seems flat out unconscionable. I really wish they would have taken the time to tell their side of the story because it makes the movie very slanted toward the farmers, when in actuality, they have a compelling story that they should tell as well (although they would then have to explain their litigation strategy, which could end in embarrassment).
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Post by thefuckingboss on Dec 26, 2010 14:43:59 GMT -6
Both parties are totally wrong as usual.
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