|
Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on May 16, 2008 14:29:57 GMT -6
I had to laugh just now. I was out running errands and, after making that post earlier, I came up behind a car with a bumper sticker that read, "Gods don't kill people, People with Gods kill people." Oh man, that's great. I'll have to remember that quote.
|
|
|
Post by Master Blaster on May 16, 2008 16:03:27 GMT -6
As stated, I am far from being a religious expert. However, those that knock the practioners of a particular faith for what the faith itself stands for are getting it wrong. Not everyone who drives a car is a drunk driver. Also, all the press shows 95%of the time is the bad side of the religious people and organizations. How many have been sheltered and fed by the almighty evil Catholic church? How many have had help rebuilding their lives by fellow muslims after a fire destroys their homes? Good deeds often go unnoticed, bad go under the spotlight. Next time you pass that church holding a carwash fundraiser to do mission work in South America, swing by and support it. You don't have to support the word of god (although in my mind you should), but do support the notion that we should practice taking care of the less fortunate. It is easy to write off god, but in my opinion He is the one responsible for caring for the less fortunate through the hands and shoulders of His followers. I believe in God and his son Jesus. I believe that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for us and in so doing showed us how we are supposed to try and live our lives. I hope you will believe as well, but it is a matter of free choice and I will not condemn you for your choice. But you need to respect my beliefs as much as I need to respect your non belief.
|
|
|
Post by lpcalihawk on May 16, 2008 18:45:31 GMT -6
As stated, I am far from being a religious expert. However, those that knock the practioners of a particular faith for what the faith itself stands for are getting it wrong. Not everyone who drives a car is a drunk driver. Also, all the press shows 95%of the time is the bad side of the religious people and organizations. How many have been sheltered and fed by the almighty evil Catholic church? How many have had help rebuilding their lives by fellow muslims after a fire destroys their homes? Good deeds often go unnoticed, bad go under the spotlight. Next time you pass that church holding a carwash fundraiser to do mission work in South America, swing by and support it. You don't have to support the word of god (although in my mind you should), but do support the notion that we should practice taking care of the less fortunate. It is easy to write off god, but in my opinion He is the one responsible for caring for the less fortunate through the hands and shoulders of His followers. I believe in God and his son Jesus. I believe that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for us and in so doing showed us how we are supposed to try and live our lives. I hope you will believe as well, but it is a matter of free choice and I will not condemn you for your choice. But you need to respect my beliefs as much as I need to respect your non belief. Chief....I agree with the majority of your post. If the Christian community wanted to be recognized for all of the good deeds, they could. They could trot out leaders that talk about helping the less fortunate and why it is good to treat others with respect and dignity. But what do they do? They trot out leaders (and support them) like Pat Robertson who blamed 9-11 on America's "sins" like homosexuals. Is that loving? BTR, likes to yell out Ward Churchill's name when it comes to America-loathing, but the Christian right are just as bad when it comes to throwing America under the bus for its "wrongs". If the Christian right wanted to change its public perception, it can. Denounce these old fuckers who are nuckin futs and start promoting those Christians who stress loving thy neighbor and helping those who need our assistance.
|
|
|
Post by Dr. Doofenshmirtz (Heywood) on May 16, 2008 19:44:52 GMT -6
As stated, I am far from being a religious expert. However, those that knock the practioners of a particular faith for what the faith itself stands for are getting it wrong. Not everyone who drives a car is a drunk driver. Also, all the press shows 95%of the time is the bad side of the religious people and organizations. How many have been sheltered and fed by the almighty evil Catholic church? How many have had help rebuilding their lives by fellow muslims after a fire destroys their homes? Good deeds often go unnoticed, bad go under the spotlight. Next time you pass that church holding a carwash fundraiser to do mission work in South America, swing by and support it. You don't have to support the word of god (although in my mind you should), but do support the notion that we should practice taking care of the less fortunate. It is easy to write off god, but in my opinion He is the one responsible for caring for the less fortunate through the hands and shoulders of His followers. I believe in God and his son Jesus. I believe that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for us and in so doing showed us how we are supposed to try and live our lives. I hope you will believe as well, but it is a matter of free choice and I will not condemn you for your choice. But you need to respect my beliefs as much as I need to respect your non belief. Chief....I agree with the majority of your post. If the Christian community wanted to be recognized for all of the good deeds, they could. They could trot out leaders that talk about helping the less fortunate and why it is good to treat others with respect and dignity. But what do they do? They trot out leaders (and support them) like Pat Robertson who blamed 9-11 on America's "sins" like homosexuals. Is that loving? BTR, likes to yell out Ward Churchill's name when it comes to America-loathing, but the Christian right are just as bad when it comes to throwing America under the bus for its "wrongs". If the Christian right wanted to change its public perception, it can. Denounce these old fuckers who are nuckin futs and start promoting those Christians who stress loving thy neighbor and helping those who need our assistance. The reason that you always see/hear those "Christian leaders" and not the leaders doing the good deeds is because the true leaders don't want the recognition. They would rather do something good and stay anonymous than to be in the spotlight. The people you see on TV are fake; they are in it for the wrong thing (fame).
|
|
|
Post by Norm "racerhawk" Parker on May 16, 2008 22:48:46 GMT -6
Although being an agnostic, I'm sick of shit attitudes by people who think they are somehow above or superior to people who believe in a higher being. I would bet that the percentage of idiots is equally distributed between the religious/non-religious. great post. very true, i think.
|
|
herkyp
Prostate Massager
Posts: 134
|
Post by herkyp on May 17, 2008 4:54:54 GMT -6
Religion is an outdated concept. It is for the weak minded. I understand at one time it was necessary for humans who were even dumber than the people today. How about some of you church goers ask your pastor, priest, whoever, what about the dinosaurs??? Why were they around 40 million years before man?? Or how all the other species of humans (i.e. neanderthals) fit into the equation. Are they gods image or are we? Or why only a few people (the Jews) were the chosen people and everyone else on the planet was damned, even the people who didn't have a choice, i.e. the american indian. How about going back and reading the old testament and realizing what a vicious, egomanic, childish, immature, bigheaded thing god is. For instance, when the jews left egypt and came to the promised land god ordered them to kill the people living there and take the land, hey god how about using some of that awesome power and just moving them. I was raised lutheran my whole life and finally saw the light.
This free will crap is a garbage argument also. God knows everything before it happens which means it's all planned out. So how exactly is that free will. Why even pray? All the decision have already been made. God created you to make a decision if you will love him or not. Sounds like someone has issues.
I could go on forever, but some of you are going to be pissed at me already.
|
|
|
Post by socal on May 17, 2008 9:03:42 GMT -6
Religion is an outdated concept. It is for the weak minded. I understand at one time it was necessary for humans who were even dumber than the people today. How about some of you church goers ask your pastor, priest, whoever, what about the dinosaurs??? Why were they around 40 million years before man?? Or how all the other species of humans (i.e. neanderthals) fit into the equation. Are they gods image or are we? Or why only a few people (the Jews) were the chosen people and everyone else on the planet was damned, even the people who didn't have a choice, i.e. the american indian. How about going back and reading the old testament and realizing what a vicious, egomanic, childish, immature, bigheaded thing god is. For instance, when the jews left egypt and came to the promised land god ordered them to kill the people living there and take the land, hey god how about using some of that awesome power and just moving them. I was raised lutheran my whole life and finally saw the light. This free will crap is a garbage argument also. God knows everything before it happens which means it's all planned out. So how exactly is that free will. Why even pray? All the decision have already been made. God created you to make a decision if you will love him or not. Sounds like someone has issues. I could go on forever, but some of you are going to be pissed at me already. I disagree. Religion is far from outdated, and does have many qualities that make people & the world better. While Copernicus & Galileo can be considered the beginnings of bringing people away from the "story" as written in the Bible, countless other sciences / theories didn't start competing against the Biblical story until about 150 years ago. This ever expanding knowledge does directly go against the biblical story, but the underlying "human goodness teachings" - can never be dismissed with a new scientific study***. More problems are found in the entirely human borne dogmatic teachings of religions. Obeisance through tithing can result in good acts. It is however, subject to the very human religious leaders and their internal motives - and has often resulted in the human quest for more power & more money --- to acquire more power & more money. In this sense, the power of science/knowledge - has removed the cudgel from religious leader hands & made religion obsolete. But as this knowledge is acquired & not universally "imbued" worldwide, the slow evolution of religion from an edict making entity - to a more humanistic entity, ensures its future. ***This discounts the old testament laws/edicts - as we now know that a blessing doesn't cure open skin sores, nor that a woman's menstrual cycle causes her to be "unpure", etc.
|
|
|
Post by iammrhawkeyes on May 17, 2008 10:38:01 GMT -6
Religion is an outdated concept. It is for the weak minded. I understand at one time it was necessary for humans who were even dumber than the people today. How about some of you church goers ask your pastor, priest, whoever, what about the dinosaurs??? Why were they around 40 million years before man?? Or how all the other species of humans (i.e. neanderthals) fit into the equation. Are they gods image or are we? Or why only a few people (the Jews) were the chosen people and everyone else on the planet was damned, even the people who didn't have a choice, i.e. the american indian. How about going back and reading the old testament and realizing what a vicious, egomanic, childish, immature, bigheaded thing god is. For instance, when the jews left egypt and came to the promised land god ordered them to kill the people living there and take the land, hey god how about using some of that awesome power and just moving them. I was raised lutheran my whole life and finally saw the light. This free will crap is a garbage argument also. God knows everything before it happens which means it's all planned out. So how exactly is that free will. Why even pray? All the decision have already been made. God created you to make a decision if you will love him or not. Sounds like someone has issues. I could go on forever, but some of you are going to be pissed at me already. I disagree. Religion is far from outdated, and does have many qualities that make people & the world better. While Copernicus & Galileo can be considered the beginnings of bringing people away from the "story" as written in the Bible, countless other sciences / theories didn't start competing against the Biblical story until about 150 years ago. This ever expanding knowledge does directly go against the biblical story, but the underlying "human goodness teachings" - can never be dismissed with a new scientific study***. More problems are found in the entirely human borne dogmatic teachings of religions. Obeisance through tithing can result in good acts. It is however, subject to the very human religious leaders and their internal motives - and has often resulted in the human quest for more power & more money --- to acquire more power & more money. In this sense, the power of science/knowledge - has removed the cudgel from religious leader hands & made religion obsolete. But as this knowledge is acquired & not universally "imbued" worldwide, the slow evolution of religion from an edict making entity - to a more humanistic entity, ensures its future. ***This discounts the old testament laws/edicts - as we now know that a blessing doesn't cure open skin sores, nor that a woman's menstrual cycle causes her to be "unpure", etc. Even a blind nut finds a nut once in a while. Good post.
|
|
|
Post by Master Blaster on May 17, 2008 16:05:07 GMT -6
So couldn't god be smart enough to come up with a basic set of rules (physics, Darwinism, extinction) etc. to account for our advancements? Does a day in his life have to equal a day in ours? Did Mother Theresa really do lots of things to offend you? I think a lot of the people of the world are worshipping the same god via different methods. And having a moral code of ethics to do the right thing can't be all that bad of a thing to believe in.
|
|
herkyp
Prostate Massager
Posts: 134
|
Post by herkyp on May 18, 2008 4:47:35 GMT -6
I'm all for the morals that are taught in church, I just don't buy into the idea that there is a invisible creature watching over us. Look around at the world, what a horrible place. Wars, famine, disease, all these things have been around forever. But my main problem with god is his immaturity. If you read the bible it doesn't take very long to see what I'm talking about. God still holds a grudge for what Adam and Eve did way back at the begining. Why?? Let it go. Moses wasn't allowed into the promised land because he didn't get water the way god wanted him to. He created all of man kind and then destroyed most of it with a flood. I thought he knew everything, didn't he realize what mankind would become. Why create something just to destroy it when it. Also, god created man and then gave him a choice to love him or not. If you don't then you burn in hell forever. Why? ? Once again god knows everything before it happens because he has a plan for all of us, so why even create the ones he plans on sending to hell??
|
|
|
Post by The Bluzmn on May 18, 2008 6:06:44 GMT -6
I will add that the argument that without a god and religion, man would have no moral code is bullshit. I do not believe in god at all, but I know that stealing and killing and raping is wrong. And explain to me why we need a belief in a mythical creature to do good things?
This is still a semi-free country so I respect your right to believe whatever you want, as long as you do not impose that belief on me, our laws, our schools and our foreign policy. The Heaven's Gate lunatics who castrated themselves and committed suicide to be taken up to the mother ship had the right to believe that nonsense as well.
But as for the beliefs themselves, I do not respect them. Just because someone does good work in the name of mythology does not make that mythology any more valid. herkyp may be a little more aggressive than I am, but he makes a very good point. Look at the world and the people in it. If this is truly "God's work," then y'all should be pissed because He sure fucked up the job.
|
|
|
Post by socal on May 18, 2008 9:09:52 GMT -6
But as for the beliefs themselves, I do not respect them. Just because someone does good work in the name of mythology does not make that mythology any more valid. herkyp may be a little more aggressive than I am, but he makes a very good point. Look at the world and the people in it. If this is truly "God's work," then y'all should be pissed because He sure fucked up the job. The beliefs themselves (writings, dogma, etc.) and the resulting actions are both - combined... and able to stand by themselves. When looked at in total - with real world influence added... sure, they lose credibility. But when the moral message contained within is extracted, if that message causes a person to perform good acts they would otherwise not do - that is a +1 in my book. Conversely, people misinterpreting/misusing/selectively interpreting the message as a means to gain themselves power - is a -1 (or worse) in my book. For example, I'm sure that you can think of a book or movie that was crap to read or watch --- but still contained a good story. Now think of the result that could come by someone thinking the book/movie was capturing reality. I wish I could find the quote, but there is a wonderful quote by Stephen Jay Gould in one of Michael Shermer's books - that discusses the unbelievably remarkable set of explainable events that allowed us to be here today. While each unique item is required for life, any alteration along the way would have caused drastically different results. To some people, they sum it up to the simplest of answers - God. Others see life for being amazingly remarkable - because if something along the way didn't happen exactly as it did (The moon stopping our wobble / churning the seas, our exact distance from the sun, etc.) - nobody would be here to debate about it.
|
|
|
Post by Master Blaster on May 18, 2008 11:42:36 GMT -6
You can have morals and not believe in god. I went through a long period in my life that I didn't believe. I used the same arguments. I lived my life much the same as I do now. It wasn't until I met my wife and had two sons that I started to believe. After a close call with my youngest son in which he nearly died and his eventual recovery to a full and normal life (with the help of one truely incredible doctor) I had no doubt upon the existance of god. I prayed and my prayers were answered. I see gods love and goodness everytime I look at my son. That is all the evidence I need to believe in his existance. If you think that religion hasn't had a huge influence on morality in a largely positive way, you are truely looking through blinders. I don't disagree that there are wackjob religious nuts out there, that the church has made mistakes in the past and will in the future. Truth be told, I am even without denomination currently. I was raised loosely as a Methodist, my wife is Catholic, which is where we usually go on Sundays. I am not a regular attendee of church and am definitely not a very good example of a Christian. I can't quote the bible well. But I do believe in his existance. The untold masses of people that do good things in his name largely go unrecognized or heralded. They are your neighbors, friends, family. To think we are only here for the blink of an eye then gone without any purpose is not fathomable to me. We all serve a purpose and an intention in his eyes, we all fall short, and those that ask for forgiveness are given it by the grace and sacrifice of His only begotten son. I got no problem with you not believing. It is a leap of faith that has to be made to believe. You choose your path, I'll choose mine.
|
|
|
Post by Dr. Doofenshmirtz (Heywood) on May 18, 2008 12:33:31 GMT -6
You can have morals and not believe in god. I went through a long period in my life that I didn't believe. I used the same arguments. I lived my life much the same as I do now. It wasn't until I met my wife and had two sons that I started to believe. After a close call with my youngest son in which he nearly died and his eventual recovery to a full and normal life (with the help of one truely incredible doctor) I had no doubt upon the existance of god. I prayed and my prayers were answered. I see gods love and goodness everytime I look at my son. That is all the evidence I need to believe in his existance. If you think that religion hasn't had a huge influence on morality in a largely positive way, you are truely looking through blinders. I don't disagree that there are wackjob religious nuts out there, that the church has made mistakes in the past and will in the future. Truth be told, I am even without denomination currently. I was raised loosely as a Methodist, my wife is Catholic, which is where we usually go on Sundays. I am not a regular attendee of church and am definitely not a very good example of a Christian. I can't quote the bible well. But I do believe in his existance. The untold masses of people that do good things in his name largely go unrecognized or heralded. They are your neighbors, friends, family. To think we are only here for the blink of an eye then gone without any purpose is not fathomable to me. We all serve a purpose and an intention in his eyes, we all fall short, and those that ask for forgiveness are given it by the grace and sacrifice of His only begotten son. I got no problem with you not believing. It is a leap of faith that has to be made to believe. You choose your path, I'll choose mine. This almost describes myself perfectly. The only differences are I have 2 daughters and my oldest could have died at birth but she survived and is a normal (if there is such a thing) 3 year old.
|
|
|
Post by Master Blaster on May 18, 2008 13:57:00 GMT -6
I'm all for the morals that are taught in church, I just don't buy into the idea that there is a invisible creature watching over us. Look around at the world, what a horrible place. Wars, famine, disease, all these things have been around forever. But my main problem with god is his immaturity. If you read the bible it doesn't take very long to see what I'm talking about. God still holds a grudge for what Adam and Eve did way back at the begining. Why?? Let it go. Moses wasn't allowed into the promised land because he didn't get water the way god wanted him to. He created all of man kind and then destroyed most of it with a flood. I thought he knew everything, didn't he realize what mankind would become. Why create something just to destroy it when it. Also, god created man and then gave him a choice to love him or not. If you don't then you burn in hell forever. Why? ? Once again god knows everything before it happens because he has a plan for all of us, so why even create the ones he plans on sending to hell?? The impression created here is that you believe but do not respect god. You think of him as cruel and immature. So are you an atheist or a non supporting believer?
|
|
herkyp
Prostate Massager
Posts: 134
|
Post by herkyp on May 18, 2008 19:21:53 GMT -6
I'm an atheist. I used to believe for years, but as I grew older I started to notice the world around me was totally fucked up. On my mother's side of the family they are all religious freaks, so when I had questions they always answered with the same statement "God has a reason for everything." I don't buy that. What is the reason for cancer, aids, MS, and many more diseases? What about natural disasters that claim thousands of lives?
I also believe in life other than that on earth. With all of the universe, we can't possibly be alone. If you believe in et life then you can't believe in the teachings of the bible.
Not trying to stomp on anyones beliefs. I guess what it boils down to is I'm looking for alot of answers.
|
|
|
Post by GhostMod 5000 on May 18, 2008 20:30:27 GMT -6
Well, when you are a teenager, your parents do alot of things that don't make any sense, and although you may hate it, they say that they do it because they love you.
|
|
|
Post by socal on May 19, 2008 9:11:28 GMT -6
(with the help of one truely incredible doctor) I had no doubt upon the existance of god. ...or good medical schools... Over the weekend I went back to Iowa, and the topic of my step-mom's car accident came up. -She was 18 at the time and went through the windshield of her '52 Ford after being hit by a new '63 Caddy. Both cars were totaled & hers didn't have a seatbelt. After being in a coma for 2 weeks - without them operating on her because they didn't think she would make it... she woke up. They then performed 2 operations to patch her up. She mentioned how the nursing staff at the hospital treated her. They said she was a "baby" for complaining - while they rudely & forcefully sat her up - or made her drink cold water in a mouth with 14 broken teeth. 4 weeks after the accident, they were preparing for another surgery & took an X-Ray that showed her C2 bone in her neck was all but demolished - and the 1st & 3rd bones were almost touching. She considers it a miracle she lived & can even walk today - after the time it took for them to find it - with the way they treated her during her stay. Though it is a good story, I don't see it as a "miracle"... damned lucky, but not a miracle. To see it as a miracle - would mean God was involved in: Causing her accident (including preventing seatbelts from being installed in her 1952 car), the torture of her in the hospital, the torture of her during recovery, the lifelong problems she's had ever since. Not the kind of God I'd like to believe in... It's all or nothing. God was involved in your son's recover AND causing him to almost die, or he didn't have a role whatsoever. Thus, the crux of my Deist beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by GhostMod 5000 on May 19, 2008 10:02:03 GMT -6
Like I said before, sometimes the reasons are not entirely clear. People have trouble understanding that God knows what is better for them than they do themselves. It is almost like we are the rebelious teenagers, and God is the Parent, doing shit to piss us off, but doing it for our own good.
|
|