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Post by thejesus on Jul 20, 2009 15:36:02 GMT -6
I finally had the time to sit down and finish watching this video today. I watched the first 15 minutes a couple weeks back and was interested by it, but had to leave. Anyway, I'm curious what some of the board's thoughts on this will be. I'm not really interested in your opinion unless you actually watch the video. Don't just watch a couple minutes and then spout off some bullshit about conspiracy theories and nut jobs. By the way, it is 2 hours long. So don't start it unless you actually have time to watch it. If you are like me at all, it will keep your attention completely. The 2 hours seemed to fly by. Really, truly, fascinating video. It really makes you think.
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Post by HawksStock on Jul 20, 2009 16:11:40 GMT -6
you can find it in better quality on google video. I agree with a lot of it, jesus it's time for you start researching the Rothchild's and out fractional reserve system.
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Post by twine on Jul 20, 2009 22:07:48 GMT -6
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Post by socal on Jul 21, 2009 6:15:29 GMT -6
I think I was the one that gave Stock the Google link back when he was in his wacked out phase post election.
It was an interesting flick, a bit paranoid, but interesting.
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Post by thejesus on Jul 24, 2009 15:46:56 GMT -6
Did anyone stick around long enough to see the part about "The Venus Project"? Resource based economy........interesting to say the least. I like the idea of having no money and no prisons.
No matter how "paranoid" it came off as, it's hard to argue with some of what they say. I found the part about the "Economic Hitmen" pretty fascinating.
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Post by thunderhawk on Jul 24, 2009 21:20:31 GMT -6
That "economic hitmen" shit is real. I had a prof during a summer course at Drake who was retired CIA. Wilhoit was his name, I believe. He taught a course on Latin American politics. He told us about all of the fucked up shit American businesses in conjunction with the intelligence and military apparatuses pulled down there. Brutal exploitation of the proles for the enrichment of the corrupt native elites and multinational corporations. That shit is all real, a conspiracy in plain sight.
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Post by Gumbyhawk on Jul 25, 2009 14:39:05 GMT -6
(raises hand)
Dumb question, but is this movie available on DVD? I really want to check it out, but don't really want to watch in on YouTube.
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Post by thejesus on Jul 30, 2009 8:55:50 GMT -6
www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/Here is the website. I've just started poking around on it, but I'm sure you can find a copy of the movie on DVD through here. I guess there is a 1st movie called Zeitgeist, The Movie which deals with religion, 911, how the Federal Reserve basically owns the government and the attempt at a North American Union (precursor for a one world governement). I'll be watching this movie in the very near future too. Say what you will, but this shit is very interesting at the least.
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Post by thejesus on Jul 30, 2009 13:34:30 GMT -6
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Post by Gumbyhawk on Aug 1, 2009 18:31:58 GMT -6
I really would have loved to have watched the movie, but after 1 minute, 36 seconds of interrupted, broken playback (even WITH a high speed connection), I gave up.
Too bad it is not available on DVD.
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Post by thejesus on Aug 3, 2009 15:35:13 GMT -6
For Gumby, and any others who question the way the world works: www.zeitgeistmovie.com/dvdorder.htmOnly $7, with shipping. Not bad at all. 2 hours that will keep your focus from the very beginning.
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Post by Gumbyhawk on Aug 3, 2009 19:21:02 GMT -6
Cool! Thanks, man! I actually did find an online version that worked okay, but didn't have the time to watch it yet.
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Post by iammrhawkeyes on Aug 20, 2009 18:08:20 GMT -6
I finally had the time to sit down and finish watching this video today. I watched the first 15 minutes a couple weeks back and was interested by it, but had to leave. Anyway, I'm curious what some of the board's thoughts on this will be. I'm not really interested in your opinion unless you actually watch the video. Don't just watch a couple minutes and then spout off some bullshit about conspiracy theories and nut jobs. By the way, it is 2 hours long. So don't start it unless you actually have time to watch it. If you are like me at all, it will keep your attention completely. The 2 hours seemed to fly by. Really, truly, fascinating video. It really makes you think. I watched the whole thing last night. There are some interesting parts but The Venus Project wasn't one of them. Do you really believe that technology and a "resource based economy" can save mankind? The guy was discussing how we would live in these grand utopian cities where nobody would have to work. We could all pursue our own interests because money and the labor to aquire said money would be forever out of the equation because of technology. He also said that there wouldn't need to be any more laws after aboloshing a money based economy. How is that possible? Who the fuck is going to build these cities? (And please don't answer with "the robots/machines"). Will I still be able to get a Double-Double animal style? How will society defend itself from the few bad apples left in the world when the military is abolished?
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Post by thejesus on Aug 21, 2009 8:16:42 GMT -6
"Do you really believe that technology and a "resource based economy" can save mankind?"
I'm not sure what you mean by saving mankind. Do I think it's a magic cure-all? No. But I certainly think it's a better idea of how to do things then our current system. Our current system forces competition and creates division amongst us. Some people live the high life while others can't even eat or have transportation. The world has enough resources where this should not be the case. Everyone should be able to live comfortably. So, I don' t necessarily think it will "save" mankind, but I do think it gives us the greatest opportunity to evolve into what humans have the potential to be.
"He also said that there wouldn't need to be any more laws after aboloshing a money based economy. How is that possible?"
Here is what their website has to say about that question. I highlighted a few words:
Today we try to control human behavior by enacting laws or signing treaties without changing the physical conditions responsible for aberrant behavior. When Earth’s resources are seen as the common heritage of all people, IRRELEVANT laws and social contracts will vanish.
In a resource-based economy, social responsibility would not be a function of artificial laws or force. Safeguards against abuse could be designed into the environment. An example of this is the proposed design of cities where people have free access to resources without debt. This would eliminate theft. Such measures are not a matter of passing and enforcing laws to prevent and punish abuse. Rather, they are the means of designing the flaws out of any social venture, thus eliminating the need for MANY laws.
We are proposing doing away with the systems that cause corruption and human suffering in the first place. In a city with safe, clean, mass transportation, we do not need police to monitor driver’s speed, behavior at stop signs, or proper papers.
Other examples are the air and the water. Although both are necessary to our well-being and survival, there are no laws regulating how many breaths are taken per hour because we have such abundance at this time. No one monitors a gushing spring to see how much water is taken from it, although fresh water is absolutely necessary for the support of life. It is abundant, no one monitors it.
I must emphasize that this approach to global governance has nothing in common with the present aims of an elite few to form a world government with themselves at the helm, and the vast majority subservient to them. This newer vision of globalization empowers every person on the planet to be all they can be, without living in abject subjugation to a corporate governing body.
A society with human concern “designs out” laws and proclamations by making all things available to all people, regardless of race, color, or creed. When government makes laws, we are led to believe that these laws are made to enhance people’s lives. In truth, laws are byproducts of insufficiency.
The question is, “can we grow beyond thinking that “someone” has to make decisions for us?”
A better understanding of natural law involves human’s relationship to the environment, which supports all life. All of nature is subservient to natural law. Natural law cannot be violated without serious consequences to individuals or societies. Natural laws dominate all living systems. For example, without water, sun, or nutrients, plants and animals die.
An environment of scarcity, hunger, and poverty is a threat to everyone.
I think what they are saying is that by getting rid of money and making all resources available to all people, you will automatically get rid of almost all crime. Sure, there will still be a few crazies left. Crimes like domestic abuse are still likely to happen. But we would need much less "policing" then we do now.
"Who the fuck is going to build these cities? "
Umm......people? That one seems obvious to me.
"How will society defend itself from the few bad apples left in the world when the military is abolished? "
Most bad apples will be eliminated due to rectifying the situations that create most of them. However, it would be a transition process. And for awhile, we certainly still have a need for some prisons and police. Although, the numbers would be drastically reduced and only people who are truly crazy would need to be incarcerated. I believe though, that as humans evolve in this sort of social structure, that the need for police, prisions and military will completely dissappear.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Aug 21, 2009 9:17:46 GMT -6
(1) Our current system forces competition and creates division amongst us. Some people live the high life while others can't even eat or have transportation. The world has enough resources where this should not be the case. Everyone should be able to live comfortably. So, I don' t necessarily think it will "save" mankind, but I do think it gives us the greatest opportunity to evolve into what humans have the potential to be. (2) An example of this is the proposed design of cities where people have free access to resources without debt. This would eliminate theft. Such measures are not a matter of passing and enforcing laws to prevent and punish abuse. Rather, they are the means of designing the flaws out of any social venture, thus eliminating the need for MANY laws. (3) Other examples are the air and the water. Although both are necessary to our well-being and survival, there are no laws regulating how many breaths are taken per hour because we have such abundance at this time. (4) No one monitors a gushing spring to see how much water is taken from it, although fresh water is absolutely necessary for the support of life. It is abundant, no one monitors it. (5) An environment of scarcity, hunger, and poverty is a threat to everyone. (6) I believe though, that as humans evolve in this sort of social structure, that the need for police, prisions and military will completely dissappear. (1) Wrong. Scarcity of resources is what creates the competition. Many resources that people want are rivalrous (can only be used by a limited number of persons at a time) and exclusive (it is possible to prevent people from using it). (2) See above. Human nature is to want more resources. Resources are finite and the communist utopia this guy seeks to create will require a great deal of force and coercion to prevent people from using more than their fair share of resources. (3) Air is an example of a non-rivalrous, non-excludable good. It moves freely and there is no way to reduce it to ownership. It is unlike most other resources. (4) This guy has never been to Nevada. In places where there is water scarcity, water usage is monitored regularly. Water is also often rationed during droughts because it is a rivalrous good. (5) Nothing in this guy's plan gets rid of scarcity. (6) Not a chance in hell. Resources are becoming more scarce, not less scarce. Scarcity is what will drive competition and war. These dudes need to take some economics classes, especially money and banking.
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Post by thejesus on Aug 21, 2009 14:04:58 GMT -6
(1) Our current system forces competition and creates division amongst us. Some people live the high life while others can't even eat or have transportation. The world has enough resources where this should not be the case. Everyone should be able to live comfortably. So, I don' t necessarily think it will "save" mankind, but I do think it gives us the greatest opportunity to evolve into what humans have the potential to be. (2) An example of this is the proposed design of cities where people have free access to resources without debt. This would eliminate theft. Such measures are not a matter of passing and enforcing laws to prevent and punish abuse. Rather, they are the means of designing the flaws out of any social venture, thus eliminating the need for MANY laws. (3) Other examples are the air and the water. Although both are necessary to our well-being and survival, there are no laws regulating how many breaths are taken per hour because we have such abundance at this time. (4) No one monitors a gushing spring to see how much water is taken from it, although fresh water is absolutely necessary for the support of life. It is abundant, no one monitors it. (5) An environment of scarcity, hunger, and poverty is a threat to everyone. (6) I believe though, that as humans evolve in this sort of social structure, that the need for police, prisions and military will completely disappear. (1) Wrong. Scarcity of resources is what creates the competition. Many resources that people want are rivalrous (can only be used by a limited number of persons at a time) and exclusive (it is possible to prevent people from using it). (2) See above. Human nature is to want more resources. Resources are finite and the communist utopia this guy seeks to create will require a great deal of force and coercion to prevent people from using more than their fair share of resources. (3) Air is an example of a non-rivalrous, non-excludable good. It moves freely and there is no way to reduce it to ownership. It is unlike most other resources. (4) This guy has never been to Nevada. In places where there is water scarcity, water usage is monitored regularly. Water is also often rationed during droughts because it is a rivalrous good. (5) Nothing in this guy's plan gets rid of scarcity. (6) Not a chance in hell. Resources are becoming more scarce, not less scarce. Scarcity is what will drive competition and war. These dudes need to take some economics classes, especially money and banking. #1 I love your response to #1..........wrong. As if your opinion is fact and mine is complete bullshit. You people are all the same. Scarcity of resources is not what drives competition. Scarcity of resources drives the value of a product. Scarcity is often created, purposely, to drive maximum profit. What the Venus project states is the ultimate question is "Does the Earth have enough resources to sustain the entire population?" And they say, yes, it does. #2 Human Nature is not to want more resources. Human Nature is, for the most part, a myth dude. It's perpetuated by people trying to justify the fucked up reality that is our world. People, at least Americans, want more resources because they are brought up in an environment consumed with consumerism and status. People aren't born racist. People aren't born with hate. People aren't born wanting more and more. People become like this because of the environment around them. They learn it. #6 The only resources that are becoming more scarce are the ones we don't need anyway (like oil, natural gas). There just isn't enough interest in developing alternatives yet because these corporations are going to milk the well dry and squeeze every last drop of it. There isn't money to be made in vast, renewable energy like there is with oil. The technology exists to harvest wind, water, geothermal, etc. This will only advance more and more. "These dudes need to take some economics classes, especially money and banking. " Why, to be brainwashed into thinking that all is well? Fuck banking. All the banking industry does is rob from the people and line their own pockets. All the universities do that teach these "classes" is turn out sheep, one at a time. You have the veil pulled over your eyes man, and you don't even know it's there.
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Post by twine on Aug 21, 2009 14:25:35 GMT -6
(1) Wrong. Scarcity of resources is what creates the competition. Many resources that people want are rivalrous (can only be used by a limited number of persons at a time) and exclusive (it is possible to prevent people from using it). (2) See above. Human nature is to want more resources. Resources are finite and the communist utopia this guy seeks to create will require a great deal of force and coercion to prevent people from using more than their fair share of resources. (3) Air is an example of a non-rivalrous, non-excludable good. It moves freely and there is no way to reduce it to ownership. It is unlike most other resources. (4) This guy has never been to Nevada. In places where there is water scarcity, water usage is monitored regularly. Water is also often rationed during droughts because it is a rivalrous good. (5) Nothing in this guy's plan gets rid of scarcity. (6) Not a chance in hell. Resources are becoming more scarce, not less scarce. Scarcity is what will drive competition and war. These dudes need to take some economics classes, especially money and banking. #1 I love your response to #1..........wrong. As if your opinion is fact and mine is complete bullshit. You people are all the same. Scarcity of resources is not what drives competition. Scarcity of resources drives the value of a product. Scarcity is often created, purposely, to drive maximum profit. What the Venus project states is the ultimate question is "Does the Earth have enough resources to sustain the entire population?" And they say, yes, it does. #2 Human Nature is not to want more resources. Human Nature is, for the most part, a myth dude. It's perpetuated by people trying to justify the fucked up reality that is our world. People, at least Americans, want more resources because they are brought up in an environment consumed with consumerism and status. People aren't born racist. People aren't born with hate. People aren't born wanting more and more. People become like this because of the environment around them. They learn it. #6 The only resources that are becoming more scarce are the ones we don't need anyway (like oil, natural gas). There just isn't enough interest in developing alternatives yet because these corporations are going to milk the well dry and squeeze every last drop of it. There isn't money to be made in vast, renewable energy like there is with oil. The technology exists to harvest wind, water, geothermal, etc. This will only advance more and more. "These dudes need to take some economics classes, especially money and banking. " Why, to be brainwashed into thinking that all is well? Fuck banking. All the banking industry does is rob from the people and line their own pockets. All the universities do that teach these "classes" is turn out sheep, one at a time. You have the veil pulled over your eyes man, and you don't even know it's there. I hate to be a dick but BTR is right. I would like to think that a degree in Economics would give me a shred of credibility here. I would go into more detail about "The Invisible Hand", market competition, perfect and imperfect competition, marginal costs, marginal revenue, monopolies, oligopolies, returns to scale, game theory, Nash equilibrium, prisoner's dilemna, benefits of unrestricted trade, tariffs, embargos, GDP calculations, monetary policy, fiscal policy, etc. etc. but I would have to do some recollecting of thoughts and I don't think you would give the teachings of hundreds of years of economic study much crediblity since you are becoming "brainwashed" by this paranoid mumbo jumbo. Like it or not, capitalism is the best economic system and everyone fighting for their best interests works out for the interests of the whole and causes prices to be lower. Unless the barriers to entry in an industry are so high that it costs ungodly amounts of money to enter competition, the market will wedge out people who are overcharging and someone else will step in to offer a lower price or higher quality good. This encourages lower prices and higher quality goods. Sure there are imperfections and abuse but this will always be the case. I could go on and on about all of this stuff, but again, I have a pretty good feeling it would fall on deaf ears when you are influenced by a loon like David Icke or Alex Jones.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Aug 21, 2009 14:48:31 GMT -6
#1 I love your response to #1..........wrong. As if your opinion is fact and mine is complete bullshit. You people are all the same. Scarcity of resources is not what drives competition. Scarcity of resources drives the value of a product. Scarcity is often created, purposely, to drive maximum profit. What the Venus project states is the ultimate question is "Does the Earth have enough resources to sustain the entire population?" And they say, yes, it does. #2 Human Nature is not to want more resources. Human Nature is, for the most part, a myth dude. It's perpetuated by people trying to justify the fucked up reality that is our world. People, at least Americans, want more resources because they are brought up in an environment consumed with consumerism and status. People aren't born racist. People aren't born with hate. People aren't born wanting more and more. People become like this because of the environment around them. They learn it. #6 The only resources that are becoming more scarce are the ones we don't need anyway (like oil, natural gas). There just isn't enough interest in developing alternatives yet because these corporations are going to milk the well dry and squeeze every last drop of it. There isn't money to be made in vast, renewable energy like there is with oil. The technology exists to harvest wind, water, geothermal, etc. This will only advance more and more. "These dudes need to take some economics classes, especially money and banking. " Why, to be brainwashed into thinking that all is well? Fuck banking. All the banking industry does is rob from the people and line their own pockets. All the universities do that teach these "classes" is turn out sheep, one at a time. You have the veil pulled over your eyes man, and you don't even know it's there. 1) Isn't the "value" of a product merely a proxy for competition? I derive substantial utility from looking out at the Lake on a nice day and I am willing to pay a premium to enjoy that view. Many other people similarly derive utility from being on the lakefront or oceanfront, that's why scarce waterfront property is more expensive than prole property 6 blocks from the water without a view. Competition drives the value. How is scarcity of land created other than through ultraleftist big government regulations such as NYC's air rights laws? Does the earth have enough resources to support everyone? Sure. It supports billions of people right now. But query whether you want your standard of living to drop. Do you want to eat only beans and rice? Do you want an allocation of 10 gallons of water per day? Do you want your car taken away? 2) Good luck getting me to "unlearn" the fact that my top floor apartment in a luxury building is better than the projects that your utopian communist public housing. Good luck getting everyone in California to decide they don't need water so they should divert it to Nevada. Pretty amazing that human nature doesn't exist in terms of people wanting a better life, yet no one lives in freaking Antarctica. 6) Wrong. There is plenty of interest in developing alternative energy. The patents on a product that would replace the internal combustion engine with some "free" energy source would likely be worth over a trillion dollars. Regardless of your opinion, oil is still the most efficient source of energy we have. Ahh yes, the ol' sheeple argument to close. Gotta love it. If you don't want to pay a bank, don't take out a loan.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Aug 21, 2009 14:51:58 GMT -6
I would like to think that a degree in Economics would give me a shred of credibility here. You're brainwashed man. Seriously jesus, go take 20 or 30 hours of classes in economics. They teach competing models and ideologies and let you decide which one is best.
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Post by thejesus on Aug 21, 2009 15:46:26 GMT -6
#1 I love your response to #1..........wrong. As if your opinion is fact and mine is complete bullshit. You people are all the same. Scarcity of resources is not what drives competition. Scarcity of resources drives the value of a product. Scarcity is often created, purposely, to drive maximum profit. What the Venus project states is the ultimate question is "Does the Earth have enough resources to sustain the entire population?" And they say, yes, it does. #2 Human Nature is not to want more resources. Human Nature is, for the most part, a myth dude. It's perpetuated by people trying to justify the fucked up reality that is our world. People, at least Americans, want more resources because they are brought up in an environment consumed with consumerism and status. People aren't born racist. People aren't born with hate. People aren't born wanting more and more. People become like this because of the environment around them. They learn it. #6 The only resources that are becoming more scarce are the ones we don't need anyway (like oil, natural gas). There just isn't enough interest in developing alternatives yet because these corporations are going to milk the well dry and squeeze every last drop of it. There isn't money to be made in vast, renewable energy like there is with oil. The technology exists to harvest wind, water, geothermal, etc. This will only advance more and more. "These dudes need to take some economics classes, especially money and banking. " Why, to be brainwashed into thinking that all is well? Fuck banking. All the banking industry does is rob from the people and line their own pockets. All the universities do that teach these "classes" is turn out sheep, one at a time. You have the veil pulled over your eyes man, and you don't even know it's there. I hate to be a dick but BTR is right. I would like to think that a degree in Economics would give me a shred of credibility here. I would go into more detail about "The Invisible Hand", market competition, perfect and imperfect competition, marginal costs, marginal revenue, monopolies, oligopolies, returns to scale, game theory, Nash equilibrium, prisoner's dilemna, benefits of unrestricted trade, tariffs, embargos, GDP calculations, monetary policy, fiscal policy, etc. etc. but I would have to do some recollecting of thoughts and I don't think you would give the teachings of hundreds of years of economic study much crediblity since you are becoming "brainwashed" by this paranoid mumbo jumbo. Like it or not, capitalism is the best economic system and everyone fighting for their best interests works out for the interests of the whole and causes prices to be lower. Unless the barriers to entry in an industry are so high that it costs ungodly amounts of money to enter competition, the market will wedge out people who are overcharging and someone else will step in to offer a lower price or higher quality good. This encourages lower prices and higher quality goods. Sure there are imperfections and abuse but this will always be the case. I could go on and on about all of this stuff, but again, I have a pretty good feeling it would fall on deaf ears when you are influenced by a loon like David Icke or Alex Jones. "Like it or not, capitalism is the best economic system" Oh, OK. Well, if YOU say it is the best then I better go with that. Your right though. Capitalism has done the majority of the world a lot of good. No real problems out there. No wars, no poverty, no starvation. 40% of the world's wealth controlled by 1% of the population. Yeah, Capitalism is great. Hooray for Capitalism. You are just regurgitating propaganda by an institution that is fundamentally a part of the system. Zero objectivity. Everybody must be a loon who doesn't automatically accept the system and stroke it's balls, right? You've probably haven't even read anything that David Icke has written. Yet, your qualifed to dismiss him as a loon. This shit is laughable. Don't ask questions. Don't question the world. Accept your role and live your life as a slave, making someone else rich.
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Post by thejesus on Aug 21, 2009 15:54:19 GMT -6
#1 I love your response to #1..........wrong. As if your opinion is fact and mine is complete bullshit. You people are all the same. Scarcity of resources is not what drives competition. Scarcity of resources drives the value of a product. Scarcity is often created, purposely, to drive maximum profit. What the Venus project states is the ultimate question is "Does the Earth have enough resources to sustain the entire population?" And they say, yes, it does. #2 Human Nature is not to want more resources. Human Nature is, for the most part, a myth dude. It's perpetuated by people trying to justify the fucked up reality that is our world. People, at least Americans, want more resources because they are brought up in an environment consumed with consumerism and status. People aren't born racist. People aren't born with hate. People aren't born wanting more and more. People become like this because of the environment around them. They learn it. #6 The only resources that are becoming more scarce are the ones we don't need anyway (like oil, natural gas). There just isn't enough interest in developing alternatives yet because these corporations are going to milk the well dry and squeeze every last drop of it. There isn't money to be made in vast, renewable energy like there is with oil. The technology exists to harvest wind, water, geothermal, etc. This will only advance more and more. "These dudes need to take some economics classes, especially money and banking. " Why, to be brainwashed into thinking that all is well? Fuck banking. All the banking industry does is rob from the people and line their own pockets. All the universities do that teach these "classes" is turn out sheep, one at a time. You have the veil pulled over your eyes man, and you don't even know it's there. 1) Isn't the "value" of a product merely a proxy for competition? I derive substantial utility from looking out at the Lake on a nice day and I am willing to pay a premium to enjoy that view. Many other people similarly derive utility from being on the lakefront or oceanfront, that's why scarce waterfront property is more expensive than prole property 6 blocks from the water without a view. Competition drives the value. How is scarcity of land created other than through ultraleftist big government regulations such as NYC's air rights laws? Does the earth have enough resources to support everyone? Sure. It supports billions of people right now. But query whether you want your standard of living to drop. Do you want to eat only beans and rice? Do you want an allocation of 10 gallons of water per day? Do you want your car taken away? 2) Good luck getting me to "unlearn" the fact that my top floor apartment in a luxury building is better than the projects that your utopian communist public housing. Good luck getting everyone in California to decide they don't need water so they should divert it to Nevada. Pretty amazing that human nature doesn't exist in terms of people wanting a better life, yet no one lives in freaking Antarctica. 6) Wrong. There is plenty of interest in developing alternative energy. The patents on a product that would replace the internal combustion engine with some "free" energy source would likely be worth over a trillion dollars. Regardless of your opinion, oil is still the most efficient source of energy we have. Ahh yes, the ol' sheeple argument to close. Gotta love it. If you don't want to pay a bank, don't take out a loan. I don't expect you to "get it" BTR, nor do I expect to sway your opinion at all. A dude who flaunts his material possessions, wealth and status every chance he gets is obviously primarily concerned with only themselves and their own lot in life. The system is set up perfectly for people like you. I don't blame you for defending it tooth and nail.
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Post by twine on Aug 21, 2009 16:32:51 GMT -6
I hate to be a dick but BTR is right. I would like to think that a degree in Economics would give me a shred of credibility here. I would go into more detail about "The Invisible Hand", market competition, perfect and imperfect competition, marginal costs, marginal revenue, monopolies, oligopolies, returns to scale, game theory, Nash equilibrium, prisoner's dilemna, benefits of unrestricted trade, tariffs, embargos, GDP calculations, monetary policy, fiscal policy, etc. etc. but I would have to do some recollecting of thoughts and I don't think you would give the teachings of hundreds of years of economic study much crediblity since you are becoming "brainwashed" by this paranoid mumbo jumbo. Like it or not, capitalism is the best economic system and everyone fighting for their best interests works out for the interests of the whole and causes prices to be lower. Unless the barriers to entry in an industry are so high that it costs ungodly amounts of money to enter competition, the market will wedge out people who are overcharging and someone else will step in to offer a lower price or higher quality good. This encourages lower prices and higher quality goods. Sure there are imperfections and abuse but this will always be the case. I could go on and on about all of this stuff, but again, I have a pretty good feeling it would fall on deaf ears when you are influenced by a loon like David Icke or Alex Jones. "Like it or not, capitalism is the best economic system" Oh, OK. Well, if YOU say it is the best then I better go with that. Your right though. Capitalism has done the majority of the world a lot of good. No real problems out there. No wars, no poverty, no starvation. 40% of the world's wealth controlled by 1% of the population. Yeah, Capitalism is great. Hooray for Capitalism. You are just regurgitating propaganda by an institution that is fundamentally a part of the system. Zero objectivity. Everybody must be a loon who doesn't automatically accept the system and stroke it's balls, right? You've probably haven't even read anything that David Icke has written. Yet, your qualifed to dismiss him as a loon. This shit is laughable. Don't ask questions. Don't question the world. Accept your role and live your life as a slave, making someone else rich. You are right, I haven't read his book but I have read some of his material and watched some videos. I have also checked out his website to see what it was all about. I know that it sucks that we live in a world that is sad in many ways. I do realize that many of our problems stem from the management and distribution of resources. Unfortunately, this has resulted in the suffering of many people, constant war, and a lopsided distribution of wealth. I do not deny these things in the least. When you are reading all of this science fiction stuff, it is important to keep in mind the fact that most of the world as we know it is completely new as of about 80 years ago. If it weren't for capitalism, we would still be riding horses everywhere and living off of the land. Through competition, every industry known to man had made dramatic improvements. When buisnesses compete against eachother, the consumers have options over who to purchase thier goods and services from. Buisnesses spend great deals of money to invest in capital to make their methods of production more efficient. There is some degree of risk involved with this but for one buisness to have an edge on its competitors by having more efficient means of production or superior products through technological development, they draw more customers and more revenue. The important thing to see here is that the buisnesses DO act solely in self interest. They only make their decisions based on what will help the company succeed the most. By doint this, competition creates a need for buisnesses to improve and ultimately, everyone wins. Without this competition, progress would be greatly hindered and the ability for a central power to control everything is much greater than that of a capitalist, free maket economy. When you purchase any good you are in a way casting a vote on which buisnesses and products will succeed. When competition is healthy, consumers can have their choice of what they feel is the best offerings of the buisnesses that supply their goods. By spending our money we as consumers decide what is important and if something isn't being purchased it will cease to be in production. That seems like a pretty decent way to determine what is made. Basically, you can measure goods and time in units of utility. By utility I mean the intrinsic value that you place on how you spend your time and money. If an hour of your time is worth $40 an hour, you will work for that rate. If an hour of time is worth $5 an hour you would probably refuse to do it because you value your time at a rate higher than $5. Money is essential to us to measure what goods are worth and over all the system doesn't work all that bad. If you are willing to put in the work and effort to make more money so you can have more of the resources you want, then good for you. If you value your time and relaxation and don't place a high enough vaue on getting the expensive things, then great for you as well. All of these forces working together are the foundation of how are society operates today. Granted, I do realize that the chips are stacked against many but as time moves on, this should be less and less the case. As long as people are making efforts to provide to others (via a job) they can have more in return if their output is valued by others. It really is unfortunate that much of the world is corrupt and developing. It may seem hard to believe but the United States as a country set the example for the rest of a world in what can be done with a free market. We wouldn't have ANY of the luxuries we take for granted on a prollish or weathy level if it weren't for the forces of the invisible hand that makes the market control itself. While there is a lot of bullshit going on in the world and we hope for a world that is better, you cannot assume that there are not forces working in the market that DO help the greater good. To write it all of as a ploy to screw everyone over is really not appreciating what we do have. I realize there is still alot of progress to be made but it will be made more easily by really sitting and looking at the numbers and results. Assuming that it is all just a big conspiracy to screw everyone over really doesn't help at all, if you want to help make some huge changes go out and get involved with the community. I think your problems with all of this stuff is more rooted in problems with the media and social engineering rather than the economy. I also apologize if my train of thought was a little all over the place but I'm just rambling.
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Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Aug 21, 2009 18:03:01 GMT -6
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Post by NOTTHOR on Aug 22, 2009 6:06:41 GMT -6
I don't expect you to "get it" BTR, nor do I expect to sway your opinion at all. A dude who flaunts his material possessions, wealth and status every chance he gets is obviously primarily concerned with only themselves and their own lot in life. The system is set up perfectly for people like you. I don't blame you for defending it tooth and nail. Virtually the same system you have described was tried in Eastern Europe for decades. It failed. At the end of the day, force and coercion are very poor motivators for those people who you say will build the great cities of your utopia.
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