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Post by jwiley10 on Jun 5, 2008 12:38:12 GMT -6
when, if ever, does the Democratic party rebound???
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Post by bucketochicken on Jun 5, 2008 12:42:00 GMT -6
If McCain beats Obama... when, if ever, does the United States of America rebound???
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Post by detlef on Jun 5, 2008 12:44:12 GMT -6
if McCain beats Obama, you will see the Blue Dog democrats run off and either join the GOP or start up a maverick 3d party.
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Post by Gumbyhawk on Jun 5, 2008 13:03:09 GMT -6
If McCain beats Obama... when, if ever, does the United States of America rebound??? Amen.
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Post by thunderhawk on Jun 5, 2008 13:09:20 GMT -6
Hey, Rome fell. The British empire has retreated to a little island. These empires literally controlled most of the world.
America isn't immune. We all assume we'll always be the most powerful empire on Earth, but that power is a result of choices.
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Post by The Bluzmn on Jun 5, 2008 14:02:30 GMT -6
If McCain beats Obama... when, if ever, does the United States of America rebound??? Cosign.
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Post by socal on Jun 5, 2008 14:38:18 GMT -6
If McCain beats Obama, something has gone terribly wrong. .....or there is a national outcry for "Golf Gear" johnmccain.com/Golf we can believe in.....
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Post by Chuck Storm on Jun 5, 2008 15:22:09 GMT -6
If McCain beats Obama... when, if ever, does the United States of America rebound???
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Post by NOTTHOR on Jun 5, 2008 15:24:43 GMT -6
If McCain beats Obama... when, if ever, does the United States of America rebound??? Dude, the economy is in worse shape right now than it was during the Depression. A bridge fell down. Things are terrible, just terrible and the only way to fix it is to raise the hell out of taxes and hope for change.
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Post by Norm "racerhawk" Parker on Jun 5, 2008 15:45:13 GMT -6
Dude, the economy is in worse shape right now than it was during the Depression. A bridge fell down. Things are terrible, just terrible and the only way to fix it is to raise the hell out of taxes and hope for change. No, you're wrong man. Things are great. The economy is incredible. We are WINNING the war in Iraq, and for all the right reasons. We have quashed terrorism. We are liberating countries at a record pace. America has never been more united. We have strong plans for even mo better things in the next Republican regime. The world is behind us on this, trust me. Lastly, we have defeated the propagandists' assertion that global warming exists. WE WON for God, America, and true patriots everywhere.
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Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Jun 5, 2008 15:51:49 GMT -6
I'm not 100% decided yet, because I need t hear more information from each side. I voted republican for the last two elections and came from a very republican family (although I've always considered myself independent). I am starting to lean more and more toward Obama thus far, though. I see him being much stronger in the foreign relationship department, which is essential. America seems to be on a lot of countries 'shitlist' right now. Also, as someone has brought up, Obama seems to embrace science more, something that seems to scare conservatives. My mind is not made up, but that's where I currently stand.
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Post by The Bluzmn on Jun 5, 2008 16:17:31 GMT -6
I'm not 100% decided yet, because I need t hear more information from each side. I voted republican for the last two elections and came from a very republican family (although I've always considered myself independent). I am starting to lean more and more toward Obama thus far, though. I see him being much stronger in the foreign relationship department, which is essential. America seems to be on a lot of countries 'shitlist' right now. Also, as someone has brought up, Obama seems to embrace science more, something that seems to scare conservatives. My mind is not made up, but that's where I currently stand. It's okay, there is nothing to be afraid of and we will not bite. Come on into the light. It's actually quite pleasant over here dealing with reality and information and not cowering in fear of "them," whoever "they" are now. (I thought it was gays, no...Muslims.....wait, liberals.....I don't know)
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Post by bucketochicken on Jun 5, 2008 16:22:31 GMT -6
It's Gay Muslim Mexican Liberals now. You must've missed last week's meeting.
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Post by Chuck Storm on Jun 5, 2008 16:29:15 GMT -6
Dude, the economy is in worse shape right now than it was during the Depression. A bridge fell down. Things are terrible, just terrible and the only way to fix it is to raise the hell out of taxes and hope for change. No, you're wrong man. Things are great. The economy is incredible. We are WINNING the war in Iraq, and for all the right reasons. We have quashed terrorism. We are liberating countries at a record pace. America has never been more united. We have strong plans for even mo better things in the next Republican regime. The world is behind us on this, trust me. Lastly, we have defeated the propagandists' assertion that global warming exists. WE WON for God, America, and true patriots everywhere. Meh. Obama whining about the economy is like Castro complaining about human rights. Nobody claims the economy is perfect, but we didn't build this... with a bunch of neo-marxist, pro-union, anti-business policies. Americans have no idea how good the center right regimes of the post WWII era have made things in the US. Seriously, try going to any left or center-left country (France, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, etc.) and seeing how those people live.
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Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Jun 5, 2008 16:57:41 GMT -6
I'm not 100% decided yet, because I need t hear more information from each side. I voted republican for the last two elections and came from a very republican family (although I've always considered myself independent). I am starting to lean more and more toward Obama thus far, though. I see him being much stronger in the foreign relationship department, which is essential. America seems to be on a lot of countries 'shitlist' right now. Also, as someone has brought up, Obama seems to embrace science more, something that seems to scare conservatives. My mind is not made up, but that's where I currently stand. It's okay, there is nothing to be afraid of and we will not bite. Come on into the light. It's actually quite pleasant over here dealing with reality and information and not cowering in fear of "them," whoever "they" are now. (I thought it was gays, no...Muslims.....wait, liberals.....I don't know) I don't think I'll ever consider myself liberal, just because I'm all over the board on issues. But in reading these boards it seems I'm not the only one. I certainly can't get with the religious right for their hypocrisy, denial of science, and acting on religious instinct. But I draw issue from some liberal train of thought as well. I think it boils down to being very socially liberal, but somewhat fiscally conservative.
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Post by socal on Jun 5, 2008 20:00:47 GMT -6
It's okay, there is nothing to be afraid of and we will not bite. Come on into the light. It's actually quite pleasant over here dealing with reality and information and not cowering in fear of "them," whoever "they" are now. (I thought it was gays, no...Muslims.....wait, liberals.....I don't know) I don't think I'll ever consider myself liberal, just because I'm all over the board on issues. But in reading these boards it seems I'm not the only one. I certainly can't get with the religious right for their hypocrisy, denial of science, and acting on religious instinct. But I draw issue from some liberal train of thought as well. I think it boils down to being very socially liberal, but somewhat fiscally conservative. Remember, while people like to contrast the black & white... the normal reality is debated & signed as a shade of grey - slightly tinted to the party in power. The Bush GOP forgot that - and tried to force their will in things that should be off limits (US Attorneys, military, war, politicizing basic government posts - like NASA, etc.). I've said a few times, that Obama's hardest decisions after January - are whether he should publicize the Bush wrongdoings that he will immediately have access to. Everyday there is a new story that comes out on how they lied.. so much so, that people are calloused & numb to it. When all is said & done, Obama will have to decide if he wants to people to go after Bush/Cheney etc. for crimes they could likely lose their life for. Back to the topic. When Obama takes office, there will be no laws enacted to force you to wear Birkenstocks or marry a dude... Taxes won't be raised due to Obama's actions, the Bush tax reductions will simply expire at the time the GOP planned for them to expire - where they will reset at the same amounts they were during the terrible economy of late Clinton. Sure, troops will come home from Iraq & we will stop throwing good blood & money after bad --- but the Iraqis want that too. Detroit might be a bit pissed at the new mileage standard he will ask for, but that's not a bad thing. Anyways... if you think the 8 years of Bush deserves another 4 years of Bush - vote McCain. If you think the 8 years of Bush requires something different - vote Obama.
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Post by Iowafan1 on Jun 5, 2008 20:04:51 GMT -6
No, you're wrong man. Things are great. The economy is incredible. We are WINNING the war in Iraq, and for all the right reasons. We have quashed terrorism. We are liberating countries at a record pace. America has never been more united. We have strong plans for even mo better things in the next Republican regime. The world is behind us on this, trust me. Lastly, we have defeated the propagandists' assertion that global warming exists. WE WON for God, America, and true patriots everywhere. Meh. Obama whining about the economy is like Castro complaining about human rights. Nobody claims the economy is perfect, but we didn't build this... with a bunch of neo-marxist, pro-union, anti-business policies. Americans have no idea how good the center right regimes of the post WWII era have made things in the US. Seriously, try going to any left or center-left country (France, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, etc.) and seeing how those people live. Amen Auto.....you hit the nail on the head. The libs keep chasing the car that they believe is a complete government takeover of our lives and complete substanance for those who choose not to support themselves. "From those to have the most to those who have the least". When they finally catch that car and we are france, they'll regret chasing it in the first place. I have been fortunate enough to travel throughout most of the world....the good, the bad and the absolutely horrendous....the developed and the completely undeveloped and will say without a doubt that all these Countries around the world that the libs want us to emulate don't hold a shadow to us. See the Greendex for proof. There is a good reason why the majority of immigrants, legal and illegal, want to immigrate here and its not because they want to go to the America the libs want us to be....its because they want to go to the America we used to be and still have remnants of. Once the libs start taking trips around the world, they would realize just how good we got it here. Kind of like taxes. If the libs had to write a check for their taxes every month, they would be reborn after the first check and would be demanding that our tax rates come down and that most of these government giveaway programs be shut down.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Jun 5, 2008 20:28:37 GMT -6
1) When all is said & done, Obama will have to decide if he wants to people to go after Bush/Cheney etc. for crimes they could likely lose their life for. 2) Taxes won't be raised due to Obama's actions, the Bush tax reductions will simply expire at the time the GOP planned for them to expire - where they will reset at the same amounts they were during the terrible economy of late Clinton. 3) Sure, troops will come home from Iraq & we will stop throwing good blood & money after bad --- but the Iraqis want that too. 4) Detroit might be a bit pissed at the new mileage standard he will ask for, but that's not a bad thing. 1) Ummm, okay. Is Obama planning a coup and then a retroactive revocation of the Constitution? 2) Ummm, no. Even if you want to play mental gymnastics because you have millions of dollars in munis and will not be impacted by a tax hike, you're wrong here. So, if he doesn't renew the "cuts" you'll say it's Dubya's fault for not making them permanent. Fine. What about the proposed increase in the cap gains tax? Or the revocation of the cap on Socialist Insecurity? Are those not taxes? Or the carbon cap that will be a roundabout tax on anything that uses carbon based energy to produce? Isn't that a tax, too? 3) Maybe they will. He's said they will. Maybe when he has access to different information, he'll decide that he doesn't want Iraq to turn into another Afghanistan. The hardest thing I have to do in my job is clean up other people's fuck ups. Same with the President. We have a duty not to blow the fuck out of a country and then leave it in shambles and without a government. Blame Dubya all damn day, but there's no reason that millions of Iraqis should have to die if we pull out and leave the place in a state of lawlessness. 4) I agree it's not a bad thing. When the Big 3 are forced into bankruptcy, they can terminate their contracts with the UAW and the union slug problem in this country will be substantially reduced.
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Post by mattahawk on Jun 5, 2008 21:07:58 GMT -6
I don't think I'll ever consider myself liberal, just because I'm all over the board on issues. But in reading these boards it seems I'm not the only one. I certainly can't get with the religious right for their hypocrisy, denial of science, and acting on religious instinct. But I draw issue from some liberal train of thought as well. I think it boils down to being very socially liberal, but somewhat fiscally conservative. R emember, while people like to contrast the black & white... the normal reality is debated & signed as a shade of grey - slightly tinted to the party in power.
The Bush GOP forgot that - and tried to force their will in things that should be off limits (US Attorneys, military, war, politicizing basic government posts - like NASA, etc.). I've said a few times, that Obama's hardest decisions after January - are whether he should publicize the Bush wrongdoings that he will immediately have access to. Everyday there is a new story that comes out on how they lied.. so much so, that people are calloused & numb to it. When all is said & done, Obama will have to decide if he wants to people to go after Bush/Cheney etc. for crimes they could likely lose their life for. Back to the topic. When Obama takes office, there will be no laws enacted to force you to wear Birkenstocks or marry a dude... Taxes won't be raised due to Obama's actions, the Bush tax reductions will simply expire at the time the GOP planned for them to expire - where they will reset at the same amounts they were during the terrible economy of late Clinton. Sure, troops will come home from Iraq & we will stop throwing good blood & money after bad --- but the Iraqis want that too. Detroit might be a bit pissed at the new mileage standard he will ask for, but that's not a bad thing. Anyways... if you think the 8 years of Bush deserves another 4 years of Bush - vote McCain. If you think the 8 years of Bush requires something different - vote Obama. 1) Agreed, and I have been saying that for 2 months on here waiting for someone to agree with me. 2) agreed again. Bush politicized, wrongly everything from the attorney Generals office to the USDA office. Putting people in power that had no business being there. Up until the last appt' with the USDA anyways. He probably deserved it but the schmuck before him was some asskisser, right place right time. 3) This is where you are off your rocker. I mean do you think Bush didn't spend the first month in office looking at all the crap Clinton pulled and saying to himself, awww shit!!! Where do I even start? He could have started with them leaving the whitehouse and how they stole all that stuff from the whitehouse right down to the rugs, silverware, and furniture. Someone in charge of the items in the whitehouse called them and told them to return it if I am correct. As far as them losing their lives over it? Come on be a little realistic here. 4) As far as the troops coming home. I will be glad to see it. 4,000 lives lost is 4,000 to many. I do believe Bush made some mistakes in Iraq including the start of the war. However, Obama is already making man-love to the shaw of Iran and ahmadinejad or whatever the hell his name is. That f****r gets into office and the only thing he is going to have the balls to do is sit there and wag his finger at them, now you know you can't be doing that!!! The way he has been talking I would be surprised if he don't completely disband the military altogether. As far as the tax issue, I don't believe for a minute he won't raise them. He will find a way to raise some tax somewhere. It's what they do. 5) As far as pissing off Detroit, go for it. I would love it if the Dems' can make them raise the MPG rate past the Bush mandate (35 mpg by 2010???) to around 40 or better. I just don't want the unions pissed off, i'm trying to get a job with the post office.
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Post by Norm "racerhawk" Parker on Jun 5, 2008 21:23:12 GMT -6
No, you're wrong man. Things are great. The economy is incredible. We are WINNING the war in Iraq, and for all the right reasons. We have quashed terrorism. We are liberating countries at a record pace. America has never been more united. We have strong plans for even mo better things in the next Republican regime. The world is behind us on this, trust me. Lastly, we have defeated the propagandists' assertion that global warming exists. WE WON for God, America, and true patriots everywhere. Meh. Obama whining about the economy is like Castro complaining about human rights. Nobody claims the economy is perfect, but we didn't build this... with a bunch of neo-marxist, pro-union, anti-business policies. Americans have no idea how good the center right regimes of the post WWII era have made things in the US. Seriously, try going to any left or center-left country (France, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, etc.) and seeing how those people live. meh. I never said we should be neo-marxist. You did. I just was playing BTR's little contrarian game. I'm pro competition, and pro market. I'm VERY anti Iraq war and I notice you guys like to tiptoe around that issue. Just the same beating of the stereotypical marxist, France, blah, blah routine. I work for a for-profit hospital. I run two large departments. In fact, I have the most direct reports of anyone in the place. I have helped develop geriatric medicine and psych programs. I help them make really decent cash. I will get a good bonus in the fall for my efforts (because it is based upon revenue, quality, and satisfaction goals). I know the world is comepetive. I'm in my last MBA class right now, so I can better compete with the non-clinicians in my world. I'm all for competition. PS--I've also been around, and I love this country. I just can't stand the right wing's cheerleading and slander of anything left of Fox news. For what it's worth, America's standard of living falls below some other countries that would fit into your "socialist" schema. meh.
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Post by Norm "racerhawk" Parker on Jun 6, 2008 9:02:59 GMT -6
I'm tired of anything left of the far right being labeled marxist. I'm also tired of the erroneous assumption that Americans have a better standard of living because they are "right of center."
There are several metrics that measure standard of living, life expectancy, education, and the like.
One index, which is called the human development index (widely available on line) is a composite of some of these factors and takes into account education, health, wealth, etc.
In this index, the United States currently ranks 13th, behind such "marxist" countries as Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Norway, Japan, and some others. All of these countries are definitely "left" of the US, yet miraculously have higher standards of living, better health, and in some cases, much better education than we do.
Again, I love our country and want it to be the best. I just think that someone needs to inject a little reality into the argument that everything that isn't laissez faire capitalism is a recipe for disaster. Again, I'm not arguing against excellent global trade and the machinations of the invisible hand.
Some of these countries who have "leftist" tendencies also struggle with immigration, pollution, education, terrorism, and the like.
Lastly, in this country, there is an assumption that the market is always working according to a macroeconomics text. However, in some industries, monopolies and oligopolies really change that model of a perfectly competitive markeplace. Free market advocates rightly assert that a perfectly competitive free market is the best path to build wealth for all of us. I agree. However, we absolutely do not have perfectly competitive markets in a lot of sectors.
Reasonable people can debate some of these issues, but if you want to actually have some modicum of an informed debate, then stop labeling people as "neo-marxist" and implying that essentially all of these "leftist" countries are somehow living in squallor. Many are not.
If you want to get really particular, America does not really have one standard of living either. In health care, there have been some interesting research articles on what has been described as "the eight Americas." There are several distinct ethnic, racial, and economic groups in this country, who have wildly different life outcomes. It's interesting to read, if you're into that sort of thing.
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Post by NotMyKid on Jun 6, 2008 9:54:29 GMT -6
One index, which is called the human development index (widely available on line) is a composite of some of these factors and takes into account education, health, wealth, etc. In this index, the United States currently ranks 13th, behind such "marxist" countries as Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Norway, Japan, and some others. All of these countries are definitely "left" of the US, yet miraculously have higher standards of living, better health, and in some cases, much better education than we do. Racer, great post and good info. I think one of the biggest reasons why we are ranked 13th has a lot to do with the fact that Billions if not Trillions of our tax dollars go to other countries all over the world. For whatever reason if a country or government is in need we tend to be the first to send money. (including Iraq) If we stopped trying to help every other country's problems we would be just fine, but that is a lot easier said then done.
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Post by NOTTHOR on Jun 6, 2008 10:05:29 GMT -6
I'm tired of anything left of the far right being labeled marxist. I'm also tired of the erroneous assumption that Americans have a better standard of living because they are "right of center." There are several metrics that measure standard of living, life expectancy, education, and the like. One index, which is called the human development index (widely available on line) is a composite of some of these factors and takes into account education, health, wealth, etc. In this index, the United States currently ranks 13th, behind such "marxist" countries as Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Norway, Japan, and some others. All of these countries are definitely "left" of the US, yet miraculously have higher standards of living, better health, and in some cases, much better education than we do. Again, I love our country and want it to be the best. I just think that someone needs to inject a little reality into the argument that everything that isn't laissez faire capitalism is a recipe for disaster. Again, I'm not arguing against excellent global trade and the machinations of the invisible hand. Some of these countries who have "leftist" tendencies also struggle with immigration, pollution, education, terrorism, and the like. Lastly, in this country, there is an assumption that the market is always working according to a macroeconomics text. However, in some industries, monopolies and oligopolies really change that model of a perfectly competitive markeplace. Free market advocates rightly assert that a perfectly competitive free market is the best path to build wealth for all of us. I agree. However, we absolutely do not have perfectly competitive markets in a lot of sectors. Reasonable people can debate some of these issues, but if you want to actually have some modicum of an informed debate, then stop labeling people as "neo-marxist" and implying that essentially all of these "leftist" countries are somehow living in squallor. Many are not. If you want to get really particular, America does not really have one standard of living either. In health care, there have been some interesting research articles on what has been described as "the eight Americas." There are several distinct ethnic, racial, and economic groups in this country, who have wildly different life outcomes. It's interesting to read, if you're into that sort of thing. First of all, any study that even attempts to assert the quality of life in Japan is higher than in the US is fucking ridiculous. A poor American has a higher standard of living than a middle class Japanese citizen, and a middle class American has a much higher standard of living than an upper middle class/low upper class Japanese citizen. Other than their ridiculous pr0n laws, Japan is like a country of 130 million people on the honor system. It ain't a fucking big government police state like the US. Yes, it has socialized medicine which sucks worse than the US so everyone has healthcare insurance, but getting to the doctor's another matter. Sorry libs, you can't fucking wave a magic wand and make the supply shortage in health care disappear. Comparing those Scandanavian countries to the US is like comparing Alaska to Manhattan.
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Post by Norm "racerhawk" Parker on Jun 6, 2008 10:55:51 GMT -6
Ralph, Do you feel you can make a valid assessment of the living conditions of all Americans, as you are asserting? Do you mean to tell me that you fully understand the health and economic conditions of native americans, people from appalachia, urban blacks, upper midwest whites, pacific islanders...all of them? You know all of this by heart? People in various groups in this country have wildly different outcomes. Your argument would make sense if it were completely valid.
You probably know more about the SES of people in Japan than you do in your own country. America is very diverse in this respect, and not as well off as you may believe. I don't mean this in a disrespectful fashion at all. I just don't think that you understand our people's issues as well as you claim to understand them.
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Post by Norm "racerhawk" Parker on Jun 6, 2008 11:04:21 GMT -6
One index, which is called the human development index (widely available on line) is a composite of some of these factors and takes into account education, health, wealth, etc. In this index, the United States currently ranks 13th, behind such "marxist" countries as Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Norway, Japan, and some others. All of these countries are definitely "left" of the US, yet miraculously have higher standards of living, better health, and in some cases, much better education than we do. Racer, great post and good info. I think one of the biggest reasons why we are ranked 13th has a lot to do with the fact that Billions if not Trillions of our tax dollars go to other countries all over the world. For whatever reason if a country or government is in need we tend to be the first to send money. (including Iraq) If we stopped trying to help every other country's problems we would be just fine, but that is a lot easier said then done. Thank you. I agree with you. We need to look at everyone in this country first. I will never say that America is without great education and health care. It's just that America is home to some of the best and worst of this...all in the same country. Ralph eloquently pointed out that comparing certain countries to others is a bit unfair. This probably has merit. However, comparing standard of living and health outcomes is much more fair than making assumptions and asserting conjecture that America is the best at everything because of our system...without much in the way of supporting evidence. Anytime our country is compared to another in an unfavorable way, even when it is based in fact, it seems to me that some choose to discount this comparison as invalid. Since right wing lawyers on the board asserted their conjecture that these marxist states essentially live in squallor, why not add some real metrics to support their arguments? Because they can't. standard of living and health outcomes are excellent measures, and we're 13th. End of story.
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