|
Post by thejesus on Mar 8, 2010 10:19:31 GMT -6
I have a philosophical/moral dilemma I’d like to get some outside opinion on. My post on Twine’s robbery thread stirred up a feeling I’ve been having over the last few weeks – Guilt. Here is the story: On February 19th, my friends and family held a surprise 30th birthday party for me at our local watering hole in my hometown. My birthday isn’t actually until 3/19, but since my kid is due on that date they decided to do it a month early so we could all get wasted and have a good time. The night went great. I had a lot friends and family there, good music on the jukebox, and lots of food set out for us (Philly Cheesesteaks, Dip Shit [Velveeta, hamburger and salsa mix], chips, etc). There were probably 40 people in the bar and 37 or so were part of my party. It was pretty much the ideal set up, for me anyway, to have a great time and enjoy the moment. The night progressed enjoyably, and soon everyone was completely intoxicated. To give you an idea of the drunkenness, when I walked into the bar there was 30 shots lined up on the bar. Those were gone in about 10 seconds, followed by MANY more rounds. Anyway, a few hours later, my fiancé came up to me and seemed to have a disturbed look on her face (she is 9 months pregnant). I asked her what was wrong and she told me that “Tex” had come up to her, put his hand on her shoulder, and told her “Honey, you should have swallowed”. Tex is one of the town drunks. He is a toothless meth-head who drinks every day of his life. He is known for being extremely “creepy” towards women. In fact, I’ve had to warn him on previous occasions to stop touching my fiancé. I don’t like to judge people, but if anyone fits the label “loser”, it would be this guy. Almost immediately, I went from a sense of utter happiness to utter rage. My fiancé must have sensed this, because she got a worried look on her face and immediately said, “Please don’t do anything”. I told her not to worry, that I wouldn’t. I then walked to the other end of the bar where “Tex” was sitting. I walked right up to him and the following conversation happened (almost verbatim, I remember it clearly): Me: Hey, I need to ask you something. Did you tell my fiancé that she should have swallowed? Tex: (with a drunken, wry smile on his face) Yes, I did. (he then proceeded to laugh) Me: Ok, well one of two things is about to happen then. Either you leave, now, or we fight. At that point, he looked at me for a minute (obviously sizing me up and figuring his chances of success; the beer must have inhibited his math skills) and then proceeded to kick his stool out from behind him while simultaneously swinging for my face. I ducked his punch and grabbed him by both of his arms. There was a momentary wrestling style grapple before I got an edge and slammed him onto the pool table. I got about 5-6 very good shots in on his face before I was pulled off. At this point, nobody knew what was going on. As the group separated us, I told everyone what had occurred. Once people found out what he said, the crowd quickly turned on Tex and he was verbally berated. At this point, I had calmed down a little. His face had already swelled up and one of his eyes was almost swelled shut. I immediately felt bad and good at the same time. I went up to Tex and told him in no uncertain words that he needed to leave the bar immediately, which he obliged. Unfortunately, one of my friends took the opportunity to elbow him in the face on his way out. A total cheap shot, but out of my control. So, that is the story. After it happened, I felt completely justified in my actions and didn’t think too much about it. But over the course of the last few weeks I don’t seem to be able to shake this guilty feeling. I’m not sure if I feel guilty because my action wasn’t justified, or if I feel guilty because I resorted to violence (something I’m very against). I’ve never had a problem with violence as a means of self-defense, and in this case I technically was defending myself (as he swung first). But at the same time, I issued the challenge to fight. Because of that, this poor dude had to wake up with a hangover AND a busted up face. In reality, what I did is force my opinion on to this guy with the threat of violence if he did not accept it. That is something I am completely against. It was this guy’s opinion that my fiancé should have swallowed. Why isn’t he entitled to his opinion? Sure, I don’t think anyone would argue that what he said wasn’t incredibly offensive. But is that enough justification to challenge someone to a fight? Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by twine on Mar 8, 2010 10:56:13 GMT -6
I wouldn't feel bad, sometimes people just need to get their asses kicked. It probably helped the guy more than anything to wake up feeling like crap and realize he needs to quit being an idiot. As long as you didn't put him in the hospital, I wouldn't feel too bad.
|
|
|
Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Mar 8, 2010 11:08:35 GMT -6
I wouldn't feel bad, sometimes people just need to get their asses kicked. It probably helped the guy more than anything to wake up feeling like crap and realize he needs to quit being an idiot. As long as you didn't put him in the hospital, I wouldn't feel too bad. This. Sometimes an asskicking seems to be the only thing idiots like this understand. Obviously he didn't understand (or didn't care) what he had said was over the line.
|
|
|
Post by thunderhawk on Mar 8, 2010 11:17:46 GMT -6
You only feel bad because you humiliated someone who is already a loser, a worthless piece of shit. It never makes one feel good to prey upon the weak, even when one must. It's always more satisfying to humiliate the strong and boastful than the weak and pathetic. But you did what you had to do. File it away. Fucker had it coming and got what he deserved.
I faced a similar situation at a small-town wedding a couple of years ago. This cretinous little town-drunk loser (sounded just like "Tex") was saying lewd things to my wife and sister in law. I finally informed my wife that I was going to haul his ass outside and shut him the fuck up, but the critter scurried away after I informed him of my intent.
|
|
|
Post by thejesus on Mar 8, 2010 11:29:10 GMT -6
I guess the problem I am wrestling with is whether or not violence is justified, even if someone does cross the line. "Crossing the line" is a subjective standard. What one persons deems crossing the line, another may only find as distasteful.
If one of my other friends experienced this same situation, I would tell them he got what he deserved and not to feel bad about it. But that is because it was my friend's actions, not mine. I wouldn't feel like their actions really needed to be "judged", and definitely not by me.
This is more introspection then anything. Am I the type of person who practices what they preach (non-violence, healthy discussion)? Or am I the type of person that will beat someone up for behavior that is different then mine and that I believe to be innapropriate?
The only thing that is saving me from being very down on myself and my behavior, is that I did give the guy the option to leave beforehand. And he did swing at me first. Self defense is a different story all together. And this dude wasn't exactly a little guy. He wasn't my size, but i would have put him at 210 or so. But then again, he was piss drunk and I easily could have just avoided his punch and walked away.
|
|
|
Post by germaine on Mar 8, 2010 11:50:56 GMT -6
From a female, non-violent perspective:
I would be mortified if the father of my child punched the town drunk/loser over a stupid comment, particularly on such an otherwise enjoyable evening. He was not a physical threat (though he did touch her shoulder...did she tell him immediately not to touch her, or else the cops would be called?). Was the manager/owner/bartender made aware of the situation? Could cops have been called? Yes, he threw the first punch, but you challenged him and, in my opinion, instigated the brawl.
If he had been following her around the bar, harassing her, and was told by her/you/the bartender to stop but persisted, then I think the argument could be made for what happened. But in that case, I still say the cops should have been called, so at least he would be off the street for a night and not be able to cause further trouble (or, if he was driving, hurt/kill someone).
|
|
|
Post by poncho72 on Mar 8, 2010 12:12:35 GMT -6
You did what you had to do in the heat of the moment, I say you did the right thing.
Tex won't learn from this either, he'll be pissing someone else off soon enough, if it hasn't happened already.
|
|
|
Post by thejesus on Mar 8, 2010 12:16:19 GMT -6
From a female, non-violent perspective: I would be mortified if the father of my child punched the town drunk/loser over a stupid comment, particularly on such an otherwise enjoyable evening. He was not a physical threat (though he did touch her shoulder...did she tell him immediately not to touch her, or else the cops would be called?). Was the manager/owner/bartender made aware of the situation? Could cops have been called? Yes, he threw the first punch, but you challenged him and, in my opinion, instigated the brawl. If he had been following her around the bar, harassing her, and was told by her/you/the bartender to stop but persisted, then I think the argument could be made for what happened. But in that case, I still say the cops should have been called, so at least he would be off the street for a night and not be able to cause further trouble (or, if he was driving, hurt/kill someone). I have found that women usually are the wiser of the two genders when it comes to these types of matters. I don't disagree with what you said. The guy was not a physical threat to my fiance. He would have been jumped by 25 guys if he laid a hand on her. I didn't punch him over a stupid comment though. I punched him because he swung at me. Or at least that's how I am justifying it. But I will agree that I instigated the brawl.
|
|
|
Post by twine on Mar 8, 2010 12:24:29 GMT -6
Whatever, he got what he had coming. Like poncho said, he'll be right back at it ready to get his ass kicked again in probably less than a month. Some people have just found their way into this position within a community, I don't have pity for them.
Granted, the elbow didn't need to happen. As long as you didn't break any bones or do anything that would require medical attention I'd just let it slide off your shoulder.
Even if you instigated the fight somewhat, it was for a good enough reason. Maybe the guy will learn to keep his fucking mouth shut. He's probably lucky he didn't get hurt worse harassing the wife/baby mama of the man of the evening.
|
|
|
Post by lpcalihawk on Mar 8, 2010 12:39:50 GMT -6
This is a surprising story coming from the Wasteland pacifist.
Violence is always acceptable when used in self-defense.
|
|
|
Post by socal on Mar 8, 2010 13:03:29 GMT -6
Very interesting topic with valid arguments for both sides.
A download of my thoughts: -Initially, I thought I would have gone into a bloodlust and kicked the guys ass just on principle. The saving factor being that the guy wasn't within immediate arm's reach --- allowing me rationalization time.
-I then related your situation to quite a few others that I've been in myself. All seemingly justified, but regretful in hindsight.
In the end though, warranted or not - your actions were a crime. That said, had someone with a worse temperament been the victim's fiancee, that crime could have been murder. In that regards, the guy got off lucky... and so did you for not going to jail.
I see this as a continuing evolution of your becoming a parent. You will be responsible for the proper upbringing of a kid, and that includes supporting your wife should she need it. Your actions were justified, though not likely the wisest... as the dude could have just as easily drawn a gun and shot you instead of drunkenly swinging. --Where would your fiancee & kid be then, all due to a comment by a drunk?
Analyze the situation to the best of your ability. It's highly unlikely the same exact situation will ever happen again, but small derivatives will certainly appear. Those derivatives will have their own circumstances that you will need to think through. (i.e. do I want to kill someone / die in front of my kid?)
|
|
|
Post by hawkeyedug on Mar 8, 2010 14:18:22 GMT -6
I probably wouldn't have even said anything to him in the first place. Clearly he is an idiot. You can't talk sense to an idiot so I just leave them be. If however the idiocy was perpetual I would have said something. I doubt I would have ever resorted to violence though. Only one time has someone challenged me to a fight. He got up in my face for no reason other than I was an Iowan in Minnesota and wanted to fight me. I simply laughed in his face, turned around, and walked away. He probably thought he "won", but I know who the real winner was.
|
|
|
Post by Saggitariutt Jefferspin (ith) on Mar 8, 2010 14:43:42 GMT -6
I probably wouldn't have even said anything to him in the first place. Clearly he is an idiot. You can't talk sense to an idiot so I just leave them be. If however the idiocy was perpetual I would have said something. I doubt I would have ever resorted to violence though. Only one time has someone challenged me to a fight. He got up in my face for no reason other than I was an Iowan in Minnesota and wanted to fight me. I simply laughed in his face, turned around, and walked away. He probably thought he "won", but I know who the real winner was. Very valid point as well. The more I think about it, the more I think I may have just let it slide (but I had to think about it for a long time, and I'm sober . I doubt Tex is the type of guy that you would be able to 'talk it out'. So that pretty much leaves two choices: let it go, or fight. Maybe you could have talked to the bartender working to get him kicked out. But really, there's nothing you can do about it now. You know how you feel about it, so it's something you'll probably let slide next time. Getting in trouble would have really ruined your night, and of course would have some serious residual effects. We're too old to be dealing with Johnny Law bullshit.
|
|
|
Post by NotMyKid on Mar 8, 2010 15:22:05 GMT -6
I agree with SoCal. Having a 9 month pregnant fiancee and a soon to be born child, kicking the shit out of the guy should have been the last thing you were thinking about.
In fact one could argue that doing what you did is worse then giving or not giving your unborn son vaccinations.
Not calling you out but there is nothing I hate more then drunk tough guys, your fiancee even said she didn't want you to do anything.
I wouldn't have a problem with you saying something to him but what's the point you and everybody else know the guys a loser so what is beating his face in going to prove? nothing, he's still a loser and you beat a loser up.
Spend a little more time on thinking about your actions and the repercussions that they have on your unborn child and a little less time on what type of shots you might or might not give him.
|
|
|
Post by twine on Mar 8, 2010 15:51:12 GMT -6
I agree with the posts that say you shouldn't have done it, especially taking the kid into consideration. However, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it too much. You guilty conscious is letting you know you did something wrong. While I wouldn't have done anything in the situation you were faced with, I don't think you are a bad person for putting the guy in his rightful place. I'd also say with about 99% certianty that you would have handled the situation differently were booze not involved. That seems to be the case most of the time when people do things they later regret. My only problem is that it proves you are more of a redneck than a hippie.
|
|
|
Post by germaine on Mar 8, 2010 16:36:39 GMT -6
One other thing to think of before getting into a fight...one punch (or a punch, stagger, fall, head hits the curb/bar/sidewalk) and the other person is dead...and it's your fault.
|
|
|
Post by hawkeyedug on Mar 8, 2010 17:49:18 GMT -6
...think [...] of before getting into a fight... There's your problem.
|
|
|
Post by thunderhawk on Mar 8, 2010 22:53:13 GMT -6
One other thing to think of before getting into a fight...one punch (or a punch, stagger, fall, head hits the curb/bar/sidewalk) and the other person is dead...and it's your fault. This is true. There are a plethora of possible results from a bar fight, and none of them are good. Drunkeness is no defense. Having said that, one cannot allow one's loved ones to be harassed.
|
|
|
Post by rollinspliff on Mar 9, 2010 3:51:50 GMT -6
This is all redneck ignorant opinion all while BTR is maturbating on a quater! Now what MOTHERFUCKAS!
|
|
|
Post by thejesus on Mar 9, 2010 9:15:55 GMT -6
Well, the consensus seems to be that I fucked up, pretty bad. But I already knew that I guess. That's why I've been feeling so guilty. Next time I see Tex (which I know will happen eventually), I will apologize for my actions.
What I hoped to gain from this discussion was the ability to analyze the situation from some different perspectives and I think I've been able to do that.
To put myself on the couch here for a second, I have a few thoughts:
I think what triggered my reaction more then anything (well, booze didn't help either) was being in the environment of Montezuma (my home town). I grew up in Montezuma. It is the very definition of a hick town. Red necks flock to it like the salmon of Capistrano. So I grew up around a lot of rednecks. I have always disliked rednecks, very strongly. I hate how they are almost always racist bigots who will fight people strictly because they are different then them. There's a black guy, let's beat him up or start some shit. There's a gay guy, let's kick his ass. There's someone from a different town, let's fuck him up. I just hate that mentality.
What's funny is that when I'm outside of Montezuma, I almost never get in any type of confrontation. But when I’m in my hometown, I find myself in the middle of conflict all the time. It’s usually me sticking up for the guy who is being harassed by the redneck, but I’m in the middle of it none the less. I’ve been in 4 fights in my entire life, and they all happened within 10 miles of Montezuma. And they all happened while drinking amongst rednecks. This is the closest I’ve ever come to “starting” a fight, and I technically didn’t even start it. He did take the first swing.
I think that I was really trying to beat up ALL rednecks, not just Tex. I was trying to destroy the redneck belief system with my fists; the irony behind it being that I became what I despise most in doing so. That, more then anything, is what makes me ashamed of my actions.
Alcohol is never an excuse, but I think there is little doubt that this situation would have played out differently if I would have been sober. At the time though, I was seething with anger. I just didn’t see how anyone could be so disrespectful. I felt like I not only deserved to teach him a lesson, but that it was my duty to teach him a lesson. This is ego-based thinking at its finest. Everyone is on their own spiritual journey. It isn’t my place, or anyone else’s, to force them down one path or another. The only thing you can really do is try to help/assist/teach as best as you can.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I think I’ve got a better handle on the situation and my feelings regarding it. If nothing else, it was a learning experience.
|
|
|
Post by thejesus on Mar 9, 2010 9:17:42 GMT -6
This is all redneck ignorant opinion all while BTR is maturbating on a quater! Now what MOTHERFUCKAS! Mikey, your wisdom is truly epic.
|
|
|
Post by socal on Mar 9, 2010 13:36:18 GMT -6
like the salmon of Capistrano.
|
|
|
Post by MoHawk on Mar 9, 2010 16:03:19 GMT -6
I've never been in a fistfight in my entire life. I've been close a few times, but I've always chosen to walk away. I think what happened was a natural reaction. Guys have a natural instinct to protect those closest to them. You took Tex's comment as a literal assault on your fiance, and instinct took over. That's the bottom line.
I'd advise just going to Grinnell and drinking at State Street. That way you'll be drinking in a high class environment.
|
|
|
Post by twine on Mar 9, 2010 16:07:23 GMT -6
like the salmon of Capistrano. Lloyd: What the hell are we doing here, Harry? We gotta get out of this town! Harry: Oh yeah, and go where? Where are we gonna go? Lloyd: I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen. Harry: Oh, I don't know, Lloyd. The French are assholes.
|
|
|
Post by thunderhawk on Mar 9, 2010 21:58:17 GMT -6
I've done some bad things to rednecks.
Bad things.
|
|